Harness the Creative Curve to Maximize Your Marketing

Harness the Creative Curve to Maximize Your Marketing

Allen Gannett, author and Founder/CEO of TrackMaven, joins the Content Experience to discuss the meaning of creativity and how you can spark your creative genius to reach your goals and take your marketing to the next level.

In This Episode:

Allen Gannett

TrackMaven

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Full Episode Details

Developing Creativity

Have you ever been guilty of using the phrase, “I’m just not creative?” There is a widespread belief that creativity is a sort of hereditary gift bestowed upon the few, while the average person is left to admire what they produce.

Not only is this false, but there are scientifically proven methods that every person can use to harness and develop creativity. That is the premise of Allen Gannett’s new book The Creative Curve, in which he interviews known “creative geniuses” and scientists and describes their methods.

By studying and consuming the creative work of others, you can develop your own taste and unlock your own creativity. It may not come immediately, but as with all skills, practice and effort will help you build the creative strength to take your work to the next level.

In This Episode

  • Why creativity is something you can learn
  • Why consuming is so important for creativity
  • How to balance familiarity with novelty
  • How to learn creativity through imitation
  • How to incorporate data into the creative process

Quotes From This Episode

Most people view creativity as a have or have-not situation, but that is so far from the truth. Click To Tweet

“Creativity is something that you can learn and get better at.” — @Allen

“Imitation gives you that familiar structure with which to work in, so you can just focus on adding your own novel twist. You’re not recreating the wheel.” — @Allen

“We like things at the right balance of familiar and novel.” — @Allen

Resources

Content Experience Lightning Round

What is your favorite potato chip flavor?

Allen isn’t a big fan of potato chips, but he loves pita chips!

What is your favorite ice cream flavor?

Despite the fact that it’s been called the “favorite flavor of serial killers,” Allen is a big fan of mint chocolate chip!

You interviewed the Chief Content Officer at Netflix. Did he give you ins for a show that none of us have heard of that’s really good?

Allen says he wouldn’t be able to tell even if he did, but one thing he found really exciting is that since Netflix is such a large international company, they’re working harder to find content that will work cross-culturally. This means that the selection on Netflix will become more internationally diverse!

See you next week!

Episode Transcript

 
Randy F.: Hey everyone it's Randy Frisch, and Anna's with me here. We had an awesome podcast this past week, and really excited to tell you about it. Make sure you know what to expect in here, so you can cue this up as one of the ones that you're going go to listen to right now, or on your drive home, what not. Anna, we had Allen join us from TrackMaven, and he's just so much fun, great energy, great stories. Why don't you tell everyone about Allen, from what the formal resume is, but I want to talk about what he talked about.
Anna H.: Yeah, so Allen, just to give everybody some insight, is the founder and CEO of TrackMaven, that's probably where everybody knows. The world famous marketing analytics platform, it's hugely popular. He has also been on the 30 Under 30 list for both Inc. and Forbes. He's also a contributor to fastcompany.com, and if that wasn't enough, he also has a book coming out called, The Creative Curve, and we talked to him a lot about it today.
Randy F.: Yeah, it was cool, and at first to be honest, I didn't really understand why he wrote this book tied to creativity, because I often associate TrackMaven as this company that's all about delivering ROI. His point was you get to that ROI with effective creative ideas, and I think the part that I took from this, is that anyone can be creative. It's funny, we didn't talk about this but I love the movie Ratatouille. Have you ever seen Ratatouille Anna?
Anna H.: Oh yeah it's amazing, I love it.
Randy F.: It's such a great movie, and the movie Ratatouille if you've never seen it, it's about this idea that anyone can cook. This mouse, or rat, or whatever he is can cook, and it shapes the whole movie. I felt like the same type of vibe coming from Allen as he talked about the idea of who could be creative.
Anna H.: Totally, yeah. He actually talks a lot about the fact that we've been fed this false idea that only creative people can be creative, which I subscribe too entirely. That anybody can be creative, just like Remy the rat from Ratatouille. Anybody can cook, anybody can be creative. I even talked about in the beginning of this show, how when I conduct a lot of workshops you always have one person who says something like, "Well I'm just not creative," or, "I can't do that, I'm just not creative enough."
To which I think is a cop out, but also I think people are led to believe, well you either have creativity or you don't. Allen actually has some really good tips, tricks, and frameworks for how even people who don't think that they're "Creative," can actually spark their creative genius, and get all these amazing ideas out that they didn't even know that they had.
Randy F.: First of all, I fully agree with you, but I have to stop you there. Did you actually know offhand the name of the rat from the movie? That was pretty amazing. You just did that so matter of fact. I was impressed that I remembered the name Ratatouille, but you had the rat's name down, wow. That was pretty impressive.
Anna H.: I've seen it a few times, also Patton Oswalt is one of my favorite comedians ever. He was the voice of Remy the Rat.
Randy F.: There you go, there you go. Well, let's not keep people from their Ratatouille experience, or their time with ... Allen's going to listen to this by the way, and he's going to be like, "What did you take from my podcast?" Seriously, you're going to listen to this, you're going to hear all the inspiration that Allen brought around. How to be creative, how to take your marketing to the next level, and I believe you brought it in, so let's roll to that podcast.
Anna H.: Hey Allen, thank you so much for joining us today. It is so great to have you here.
Allen G.: It is so great to be here.
Anna H.: Just so everybody can get to know a little bit about you, would you mind telling everybody a little bit about you?
Allen G.: Yeah, my name is Allen Gannett, and I'm the CEO of a company called TrackMaven that's based in Washington D.C. We are a marketing analytics platform used by a lot of the world’s leading brands. The NBA uses us, Saks Fifth Avenue, Honda, MailChimp, a whole sort of fun variety of folks. What we do is basically help you uncover what are the patterns in your marketing data. So what are the stories that are resonating, what audiences are resonating, what are the topics that are working really well.
Then, right now, I am in book mode, because I have a book coming out June 12th. It's my first book, and the book is all about the science and process around creativity. I realized when I was talking to clients, and I was talking to marketers, that most people view creativity as this thing that's just like have or have not situation. That is so far from the truth, so the book is my attempt to break that.
Anna H.: Nice, I love that you bring in the science behind creativity, because I agree. I think people out there either think they have it or they don't. One of my biggest pet peeves when I would run or even when I still run brainstorming workshops, or ideation workshops, is you always get that person that's like, "Well I'm just not creative." To help level set the playing field, what exactly is creativity to you, and how do you define it with the book?
Allen G.: Yeah, basically what I did with the book, was there's three inputs. One is I interviewed about 25 living creative geniuses. These are billionaires like David Rubenstein, start-up moguls like Kevin Ryan who did Guilt, MongoDB, Business Insider, and more. I interviewed Alexis Ohanian from Reddit, I interviewed Nina Jacobson who's a producer behind The Hunger Games, People v. OJ Simpson. Pasek and Paul who did Dear Evan Hansen, La La Land, and the Greatest Showman. Really a collective mix of modern creative geniuses, that was one bucket of inputs.
The second bucket is I interviewed all of the living, leading academics who study creativity, both in sociology, neuroscience. In sociology, these are folks like Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, K. Anders Eriksson, and then I read thousands, thousands of pages of peer reviewed research on creativity. The book is split up into two sections, the first half is focused on debunking this methodology around creativity. The second half is explaining things that you can actually do to enhance your creativity, and I tell stories about them from the people I interviewed, and I explain the science of why they work.
Creativity is one of these things that is so interesting, because I hate to say this just because of the time we live in, but there's a lot of hashtag fake news about creativity. Where you see on the covers of magazines Elon Musk, or Steve Jobs, or Taylor Swift, these people who are these very individualistic. There's these geniuses, who for them this stuff is so easy. The thing is, is that there's actually tons, and tons, and tons of research on creativity, actually super well, understood from a scientific perspective about what creativity is.
There's actually consensuses that creativity is something that you can learn and get better at. Creativity, for me what it means, is it's really this ability to create things that are the right idea at the right time. It's that ability to consistently create things that are the right idea at the right time. When you dive into creativity what you realize is that the right idea at the right time is actually, you can actually really understand that from a scientific perspective. What does compose a hit?
Randy F.: That's wild, yeah I'm curious, first of all those must've been really interesting interviews. Just sitting there, and that you probably have watched back on, hopefully you recorded all of these. Those insights must be really exciting to look back on and think about where you're going. Maybe you can talk about some people that you've either encountered in your own career who have learnt how to be creative, and what are some of the things that they did to get there. I mean, I consider myself a creative guy, but I know that feeling where you're working with someone and they're like, "Okay, I'm going to be that left brain person."
Allen G.: Totally, so I explain in the book these four things I found. I call them the four laws of the creative curve. The first one I actually think is one of the most foundational, and that is we think about creativity as this thing that you're constantly doing. You're a do-er, you create things, and in fact there's that social media meme, "90% of people consume, 9% of people engage, 1% of people create." We've put these creators on a pedestal as people who are constantly doing, but one of the things I found that all the creators I interviewed did, is they all actually spent a huge amount of time consuming.
They just spent a huge amount of time consuming information. For example, I interviewed Ted Sarandos, who's The Chief Content Officer at Netflix, he's been there since 2000. He's overseeing the entire giant pivot to original program, he oversees all the content decisions. He got his start, and he was a clerk at a video rental store in the 1980's, and he decided that rather than do his homework he was going to watch every single video in the store. Every single video, I'm not being hyperbolic, literally every single video in the store.
He credits that to this foundational taste that he developed, this ability to understand and recognize what people would like, what people would not like, what would be familiar, what would not be familiar. I talk about it in the book quite a bit, and we can talk more about it later, but I talk a lot in the book about how the balance of familiar and novelty is really important to consumer taste. Consumption is a really critical part of that, and it's not just consumption in childhood.
For example J.K. Rowling talks about how ... Not to me, but in other interviews, she talks about how as a kid to get away from her parents fighting she would lock herself in her room and read, and read, and read. How in college she had all these library fines, because she was checking out so many books, and not checking them back in time. Consumption early on is really important, but also the people I interviewed, they kept consuming. Even to this day, even as these people are busy, they have private planes, time is such an important asset to them.
I found that most of them still spend about three to four hours every single day consuming information. I call this a 20% principal, as this idea they spend 20% of their time of their waking hours consuming information. It's so interesting to me, because they actually spend almost more time in a typical day consuming than creating. You have to understand this context within which you're creating; what's already out there, what's cliché, what's new, what's different, what's the right level of new, and what's the right level of novel. That's one of those things that I think is really foundational.
Randy F.: Yeah I love that, go for it Anna, I have a million questions but jump in.
Anna H.: Yeah no same, I wish this were on paper, because I want to circle, star and highlight all of this. First, I wish we were on video, because I was completely rolling my eyes at that meme that's out there. Second, I, coming from my creative background, everything you're saying I'm 100% on board with and I love. Especially when you get creatives in a professional setting or an office like setting, there's sort of this myth that because they're "Creative," it's just what they do.
Therefore, put them at a desk and they'll just crank out creative concepts over, and over, and over again. Which in reality, there's no faster way to burnout and frustrate your creative team. It's not just this magical, endless well of things, you have to replenish with ideas, and you have to give yourself space to breathe, and I love the entire idea of consumption and going out, and just taking that time to replenish and see what else is out there.
Allen G.: Oh, I have the craziest story for you. I spent a day with the flavor R&D team at Ben & Jerry's, which is the most fun part of this whole book process.
Anna H.: Oh I bet.
Allen G.: It's super interesting to me, because most of their year is just consuming information related to food trends. They do these things called trend treks, say that ten times fast, trend treks. Which they go to different cities, and they just eat and drink. They'll go to the little local grocery store, see what fresh ingredients they have, they'll go to the hip bars and try the newest cocktails.
They'll try the newest restaurants, they all read Food & Wine magazines. The younger ones are constantly on Instagram looking at food porn, seeing what the trends are. They're constantly ingesting, ingesting information so they can understand what is the zeitgeist of food and taste right now, and that's most of their year. It's not creating ice cream, it's actually reading, and listening, and ingesting food, literally.
Randy F.: I have a question for you, and then we'll take a break after this one. I had a debate with someone recently, as to when we start to listen, and when we start to see different ideas out there. Is it considered creative when we start to modify those ideas for our own? Versus, creating net new ideas? I'm wondering what your thoughts are, because I think that's what some people's fear is when they start to consume all these other ideas, is what if it over shapes my own thoughts and my own creative process? Should I not just go to a mountain area and think, and come back with this amazing concept. We've all seen Silicon Valley probably, where he does so, granted he was high. What would be your position on what constitutes a creative idea?
Allen G.: Okay, there's lots of stuff in here. I mean I'll give you a punchline, then I'll dive in a little bit. Kanye West, just in the recent tweet bonanza, tweeted out, "That great artists steal and update," and that nails it on the head. The longer version of it is, is that as humans, and I explain a lot of the science of this in the book. We have these two urges which seem contradictory, we have these two urges. One of them is because we're constantly seeking out safety, we like things that are familiar.
We like our home, that chair that's in your living room that your grandmother gave you that's kind of ugly but it still feels good. It makes you feel safe, there's this very primal need for safety. Then, we have this other urge, we also are people who seek out novelty, we want things that are new. This is from an evolutionary perspective, because we wanted the potential reward of the things that are novel. Now, this leaves us with a conundrum, these two things are directly opposed. They literally makes no sense.
We like things that are both familiar, and things that are novel. Well, it turns out that this contradiction is actually a really elegant way for our brain to balance risk and reward. The result is that we like things that are new, but not too new. We like things at the right balance of familiar and novel. For example, Star Wars was a western in space, literally the same plot, just in space. As people, we like things that are the right level of new. Pop songs for example, they don't change huge step functions, they gradually changes styles.
Think about, there's all these interesting studies around the width of jeans for example, literally width of jeans. They get skinnier and bigger, skinnier and bigger, and skinnier and bigger, and they overtime they change. That's one of those things that we like, we like these gradual changes, we like these gradual twists, these gradual introductions of novelty. It is impossible, it is impossible to create ideas that are net new, that are fully new that are interesting. Because what you'll end up creating, if you create something that's truly new, truly original, which is so hard to do, truly original, it's just going to scare people. It's going to be too new, because we like things as people, that are that blend of the familiar and the novel.
Randy F.: I love that, I think that's also a great framework to give people a lot of ease when they're creating content. It's funny, I couldn't stop laughing to myself as you were talking about how Star Wars was western, because I'm watching Westworld right now, which is basically Jurassic Park. I think it was created by Crichton again, but anyhow, we're going to take a quick break here. I think people are enjoying this, we'll be right back after we hear from one of our sponsors, plus a special message from Jay Baer about Conex.
Anna H.: Hey everybody, welcome back. We are talking with Allen from TrackMaven, and also author of The Creative Curve: How to Develop the Right Idea, at the Right Time. Now Allen, before break you had started talking about, well actually you gave a really great overview, about how people shouldn't be too freaked about creating content because of this blend of basically our need for both the familiar and the unique, and the novel. I know in your book you give a lot of other tips about how to put people at ease, so again, at the top of the call we talked about how some people just don't feel like they're creative, and maybe they stress out whenever they have to get into this creative mode. What are some of the tips that you give? Without of course giving away the whole book, what are some tips you give to help people get into that creative mindset?
Allen G.: In the book, the second half of the book I explain these four things you can do, and one of them that I think is particularly actionable is ... This is going to sound for a second crazy, but just bare with me for a second. The second one, the entire chapter's titled, Imitation, because one of the things that, you know we think about creativity like I said, you can mistakenly think it's all about originality and newness, and actually it's about the blend of familiarity and newness. One of the ways to learn familiarity is to imitate. What I realized when I was interviewing these creatives, is that over and over again, I'd hear this story from them about how they engage in imitation.
For example, I interviewed Andrew Ross Sorkin, he is the anchor on Squawk Box, he's the editor of The New York Times DealBook blog, he wrote the book Too Big To Fail. He is the co-creator of the show Billions on Showtime, he's very good at learning new things. One of the things that he told me that was so interesting, when he first became a journalist he was like, "I don't know how to write." What he did, is he would go to the front page of The New York Times business section, he was a business reporter, and he would find articles that were on the front page that were great.
He would go through it, and he would write out an outline of the structure of the article; did it start with a quote, did it start with an anecdote, when did they start bringing in evidence, how did they wrap it up? He would use these structures to imitate the structure of this great creative work. He's creating his own stuff on top of it, his own novelty, his own actual content, but he would use the underlying structure of a great creative work. This is actually something that Ben Franklin writes in his autobiography, he did the same thing when he was 18 to learn how to write. He literally did the same thing.
Kurt Vonnegut for example, at one point was trying to get a masters in anthropology, which as a side note he gave up on because he said and I quote, "I didn't realize how stupid primitive people were." Just take that for what it is. What he did is, for his anthropology thesis, he actually created these charts where he actually outlined the positive and negative emotional valence of stories. He actually found there was these four repeating story arcs, and he realized that one of the story arcs, Rags to Riches, was particularly effective.
It was some of the most popular stories, or Rags to Riches stories, some of the most commercially successful stories. He actually learned how these stories were constructed by breaking them down and learning how to imitate them. I think that was one of the things that I thought was most interesting, was the importance of imitation in creativity. It gives you that familiar structure with which to work in, so you can just focus on adding your own novel twist, you're not recreating the wheel.
Anna H.: That's amazing, now I love that. I think I could not agree more, I think especially if you're looking at the frameworks exists. Just because you're reusing a framework, doesn't mean you're not being creative. Like if you're putting your own ideas on top of it, or if you're modifying it, I love that. I think spotting patterns, I actually even say that I think the best brand copywriters are actually parrots. They're able to look at a brand style guide, or voice and tone, or a piece of copy, and say something different, but parrot back everything that is supposed to be about that brand.
Randy F.: I think the thing that we think of often times as creativity is really, I think in our heads it's this thing around this person who's such an outside of the box thinker. In reality, to really think outside of the box, you have to know what the box looks like, where the box ,the lines end, you have to understand the framework. I mean, chefs for example are great example of this. The most experimental chefs in the world still went to culinary school, they still learn the straight forward recipe for how to bake a cake, for what makes a great omelet. You can't make an "experimental" omelet if you don't know what a normal omelet is. You don't know where the lines end for the box.
Anna H.: That's actually really interesting. I actually heard Anthony Bourdain say something somewhat similar, where he was in an interview, and of course Anthony Bourdain is a world renowned chef, and seeing he's so high up in that world. Somebody asked him, "Oh, do you cook pancakes for your daughter?" He's like, "Yeah, but if it goes anything beyond the basics I need a recipe." Even he was like, "Yeah if you want me to make red velvet pancakes, I don't know how to do that. I have to go look it up and then I'll modify it." Even, to your point, the world's greatest chefs or even the people who are at the top of their game as we see them, still need some of that structure in the boxing.
Allen G.: Oh, oh my god, 100%. I mean chefs are completely comfortable with the idea of using recipes, and often times really good chefs break it more down to ratios. Like what's the proper ratio of salt to sugar and stuff, but you need that, because that's the taste that your consumers expect when they're tasting something. There's a common taste that we have among people, because we've been exposed to certain levels of salt. You'll notice even in different cultures for example, food has a different level of saltiness, because we get use to it. If you went to another culture, you may feel like, "Oh this food is like, this is bland, it needs more salt," but to them that tastes normal.
Randy F.: Allen, first of all, I'm fully inspired by this podcast. I just want to go create something right now, which is mission accomplished. I think a lot of people listening to this, who are listening to some of these really inspiring people that you've gotten to interview, are trying to figure out, "How do I take this to my team?" I'm wondering if you could give us a story of a brand whose taking some of this, and whose executing on the creative, and what are some of the things that they did to get there that you admire?
Allen G.: Yeah, so one of the things I thought was really interesting, was when I'd spent this day with the Ben & Jerry's team. One of the things that I found is you have some of the world’s most talented creatives, most talented people, but one thing they did so well, and I think is very actual for organizations. Is that process is incredibly data driven, and not in a big data, we have to spend millions of dollars kind of way. What they do, is every year they come up with 200 what they call flavor profiles. Basically a one sentence description of a flavor, so like vanilla with cherry chunks and sliced almonds. Let's use that for an example, I don't know if that's any good.
Then, they send out a email newsletter survey to their email subscribers, they have a whole list of them. They ask questions, one, "How likely are you to buy this flavor?" And two, "How unique is it?" Which by the way is basically how familiar and how novel it is. They want to get that right balance, because if they just ask, "How likely are you to buy?" Well the entire brand would be caramel and cookie flavors, that's all it would be. Also if they just did things that are unique, they'd have all these crazy eccentric flavors that may even taste good, but no one will even try it because it sounds so new.
What they do, is they use that data to balance it. I thought that was such a powerful thing to me, because that's one of those things that anyone can do. Anyone can survey their customers using their email. Anyone can do Google surveys, which can be as low as a nickel, a response, or a PickFu. You can, I think, get a 100 people to respond to a survey for $20. I just think that element of even these creators, who are incredibly talented, who are incredibly successful, they spend an inordinant amount of time listening to their audience. Not trying to just tell their audience, "This is what you should like."
Randy F.: I love that, and it's funny as you tell this Ben & Jerry's example, I'm always reminded. I think I've spoken to Jay about this before Anna, but I think it's Lay's potato chips, who every year, and this may be a Canadian thing. Where they do this campaign, where they take user ideas for potato chip flavors. You go in, and it's really weird shit though. You can all of a sudden get hot dog with relish as a flavor, or taco Tuesday. I don't know what they are, they're just things we would eat everyday.
It can honestly be back to your pancake story, it could be like pancakes with syrup. Those are the flavors that people want, and they deliver those and it captures our eye, whether it lasts or not. Obviously that's where you need data, and that's where you need to figure out if it's resonating. I love this creative bug that you're selling at there, and I think more of us should subscribe to it, and we'll definitely get details on the book. We're going to have people stick around, we've got one more segment here where we get to know you a little bit. We'll take a break, and we'll be right back with Allen to get to know some of his preferences.
Alright Allen, we got a few more minutes here, and I figured that we'd wrap up our talk by finding out some of the things that you'd like. We've talked about potato chips just before the break, what is your favorite potato chip flavor?
Allen G.: Oh my god, potato chip flavor? You're asking a nutty health food addict for potato chips flavors.
Randy F.: We all have a favorite, whether we indulge or not.
Allen G.: Are pita chips favorite? I don't know, I think that counts.
Randy F.: Alright, alright we'll give it to you, okay.
Allen G.: Randy this is so stressful.
Randy F.: Then I'm going to stress you even more, because you laid the bricks for this. Favorite ice cream flavor? Like you lined up the Ben & Jerry's, I'll tell you mine. Ben & Jerry's for me, I'm traditional, it's Cherry Garcia.
Allen G.: That's a good one. By the way I recently read that this is apparently the favorite flavors of serial killers, and so don't judge me, but mint chocolate chip.
Randy F.: Nice, I'm mint chocolate chip normally, but if it's not Ben & Jerry's I'm mint chocolate chip.
Allen G.: We'll apparently we're serial killers then, this is something about how apparently crazy people like mint chocolate chip, and I was like, "Uh, no comment."
Randy F.: My kids hate when it's my birthday, because there's going to be a mint chocolate birthday cake, and they're like, "No one makes friends with that." Anna what's your flavor? What's your go to?
Anna H.: I'm too petrified that I'm on a call with two serial killers. I can't even think of a flavor right now.
Randy F.: You're like, "Vanilla, just white, I'm like angel." For sure there's some weird belief on there.
Anna H.: No I actually have a confession too, apparently I'm a serial killer. No, mint chocolate chip is good, but I love, there is this super boutique ice cream store around the corner from my house in Phoenix. If anybody gets there it's called, Sweet Republic, and it's actually real mint chip. They use real mint leaves in it, and it is another level of refreshing.
Randy F.: Anna, I know you're going to be here for Conex later this summer, there's this ice cream place, it's called, Bang Bang Ice Cream. Super hole in the wall, but every one of their flavors has a story. You'll get there and they have this one called, Fruity Loop, and you're like, "Oh, tell me about fruity loop," and they're like, "Well we soaked fruit loops in milk for 24 hours." I'm just like, "Alright you had me at fruit loops. That's all I needed to know." It's definitely fun. Alright, one last get to know you question, which usually we ask people, "What are they watching on Netflix," but since you interviewed the chief content officer at Netflix, did he give you ins for a show that none of us have heard of that's really good?
Allen G.: I definitely couldn't tell you if he did, but the one thing I'll tell you about Netflix that I thought was interesting, was the thing that we forget as Americans, is how international Netflix is now. One of the big things they're constantly thinking about are which shows will carry over. For example, Narcos is super popular in Latin America. One of the reasons why they wanted to do that was they knew it'd have some more global appeal. That's actually one of the things that's really interesting, is you're going to see on Netflix more and more now, these shows that maybe were originally for European audiences that they're bringing over to American subscribers. You'll start to get more of a almost an international flavor on Netflix. I thought that was cool.
Anna H.: I'm actually still bummed that Netflix locked down their VPN usage, because you use to be able to go onto a VPN, change your country, and I could go watch British Netflix, and it was amazing, or Canadian Netflix. Randy and I were probably watching the same Netflix at some point, but they shut that down, because America doesn't get everything as fast as other countries.
Randy F.: It's true. Fauda is another good international one on there, if you watch. I think it's called Fauda.
Allen G.: I love that you guys are Netflix hackers, this is great.
Randy F.: Yeah, oh absolutely.
Allen G.: Serial killers and hackers, yeah.
Randy F.: Watch out, watch out. Allen, this has been amazing, it's been great to chat with you. Maybe just as a final call to action, you can tell us where to find the book.
Allen G.: The website is, thecreativecurve.com, there's links to all the retailers, you can buy it anywhere books are sold as they say, and you can also watch the very silly book trailer which has a cameo from my four and half year old corgi. Check it out.
Randy F.: Amazing, amazing. Thanks so much Allen, on behalf of Anna Hrac and Convince and Convert, I'm Randy Frisch from Uberflip. If you've enjoyed this podcast with Allen, make sure to check out all the other podcasts. As Allen said, wherever podcast can be found; Spotify, Stitcher, Google Play, you name it, we're there, iTunes of course. Leave us a review, let us know, in the meantime, thanks so much for listening to Conex, The Content Experience Show.
 
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