This is Episode 5 of the Social Pros Podcast : Real People Doing Real Work in Social Media. This episode features Chad Pollitt, the Director of Inbound Marketing for Kuno Creative. Read on for insights from Chad, our “Work It Out” advice segment, and Eric’s Social Media Stat of the Week (this week: are we unfriending each other more than ever?).
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Huge thanks to Argyle Social for their presenting sponsorship, as well as Infusionsoft and Jim Kukral at DigitalBookLaunch. We use Argyle Social for our social engagement; we use Infusionsoft for our email; and Jim is our guest host for the podcast and a smart guy).
Social Pros Transcript For Your Reading Enjoyment
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Eric: I’m doing just fine, Jim. I’m glad that you’re guest hosting. I was getting kind of tired of Jay.
Jim: Well, you know Jay. You can only take so much of Jay.
Eric: Small doses. Small doses.
Jim: Exactly. So I’m glad to be here today. This is something that Jay had approached me about a couple of months back, putting together this podcast, and I thought it was really interesting. I’m obviously very involved with the world of social media, as we all are, and I thought it would be really interesting to come on and talk about this. Then I got to meet you and it sounds like a really fun show to do.
Eric: It has been a pretty fun show. Jay, as you know, is a really smart guy, and he’s brought on some great guests and the conversations have always been timely and relevant. So I have a lot of confidence in your ability to fill Jay’s shoes.
Jim: Well, that’s a lot of shoes to fill in there. So I will try my best. So, where do we start off here? Kind of guide me around here because this is my first time. I will just maybe just tell people out there quickly who I am, if you don’t know who I am, probably don’t because I’m a Z lister. My name is Jim Kukral and I write books and I speak and mostly books in the non-fiction world of business and marketing, very similar to what Jay does. I do a lot of consulting, but I also own some businesses. Most currently I own a business called Digital Book Launch where I help people figure out how to do book marketing. That’s really about me. That’s really the short version of what I do.
Eric: That sounds great. So we like to start with a thought of the week, which is kind of a rant on whatever is on your mind. So I’ll let you start us off.
Jim’s Thought of the Week
Jim: The thought of the week. I thought long and hard about this, and I thought, should it be something really poignant and important? And I thought, you know what? Let’s do something fun. I said, “What would happen if you were deserted on an island? Would you rather have Twitter, or would you rather have Facebook? If you could have one thing that you had to deal with, would you rather have Twitter or would you rather have Facebook?” It sounds like a completely silly question, and it is, but I’d be curious to hear your answer, Eric.
Eric: So I am immediately reminded of one thing, and I guess it’s like the quote from somewhere on the Internet, or it may have been the interwebs. Facebook is the people you used to be friends with, Twitter are the people that you are friends with, and LinkedIn, I think that’s people you want to be friends with. I’m not really sure, but it’s some blend of that, and when I run it through that filter, I would have to say that Facebook is most important to me. Not because I think it’s more useful, but that’s where my mom hangs out and my wife hangs out, and the people that I love the most are active on Facebook. So I would hate to give up Twitter, but it would probably have to be Facebook for me.
Jim: Yeah. I’ve got to agree with you there. Twitter is, as early adopters, I’m assuming you’ve been on social media since the beginning, right? I’m assuming you’ve done that, right?
Eric: I suppose. Yes, you can say that.
Jim: At this point, who isn’t really kind of like an expert? We’ve all been doing this a long time. There are really no experts in this industry. We’re all just experienced. Some more than others. Twitter for me has really evolved. When I first started, I didn’t get it. Then I got it. Then I didn’t get it again, and then I got it again. I’ve kind of come to this place where I just think Twitter is this kind of weird acquaintances of people that I know. I think you actually described it best. I guess what I’m trying to say is I agree with you. Facebook is that one thing that you can just do so much more with the photos and the ongoing threads. I think having discussions with people on Facebook is so much easier than it is on Twitter. Since the discussions are limited to just the people who are watching them, for example, if you try to have a discussion with somebody on Twitter, it becomes really annoying to everyone else following you. Doesn’t it?
Eric: Oh, yeah. For me it always ends with email me at [email protected]
Jim: Exactly. The big difference to me is that one, right there – the ability to continue discussions and build meaningful relationships and engage with people on a level that you can just do it, not privately, but just between those people. On Twitter, it’s like this one to many, no matter what. Right?
Eric: Yeah. Well, so when you run that through the filter of a business, I’ll turn this question back to you. Instead of Jim the author and super cool guy, pretend you’re Jim the Social Media Manager at a software company or a brand. Which would you rather take with you to a deserted island, Twitter or Facebook?
Jim: It depends on the company. I’ll put it to you this way. If it’s a company that really does a lot of customer service, then I’ll take Twitter every day of the week. I think Twitter absolutely excels for customer service and just hands down beats Facebook out with that regard. If I’m doing a ton of customer service, I have Twitter all day long. If I’m engaging with people and want to drive promotion and awareness and actually have conversations with people, it’s Facebook all day long.
Eric: Yeah. I would have to confirm with Jill, who helps run marketing at Argyle, but I’m pretty sure we’d take Twitter, seven days a week. Maybe even eight days a week.’
Jim: Really? Wow.
Eric: We’re a B2B software company. We use Twitter for lead gen and awareness, and our audience on Twitter, it might be actually an order of magnitude bigger than our audience on Facebook. It might be two orders of magnitude bigger. I’m not exactly sure. Twitter’s been much more valuable for us as a company.
Jim: Well, we’ll have to ask our guest coming up, Chad, about that as well. I think that there are comments on the page. If you’re listening to this on the Social Pros page, you can leave your comment below and give us your opinion as well, because we’d love to hear it.
Eric’s Social Media Stat of the Week: 63% of Social Media Users Have Unfriended Someone
Eric: Yeah. So let’s move on and we can talk about the stat of the week. This is sort of my pet piece of the podcast. At Argyle, we’re very much a data driven marketing company in terms of the way we do our business and also the way we think about our customers and our product. So the stat of the week is something that aligns with my own personal interests.
The stat of the week for Episode Number Five, I believe we’re on here, is from the recent survey from Pew. The Pew Internet & American Life Project did a survey. I think it was published February 24th or 25th, so it’s pretty recent stuff. There’s a big pile of information, and there was one bit that jumped out to me as most interesting. It’s basically about unfriending. Again, this was buried down deep inside of the study. There’s a lot of fascinating macro data about adoption and usage, especially around privacy. But this data on pruning really jumped out at me. Essentially, pruning or unfriending or deleting friends or deleting comments and photo tags is way more popular than it was just a couple years ago. So from the survey, let me make sure I’m telling you correctly, two-thirds of the profile owners that were surveyed, actually a little less than two-thirds, have deleted people from their networks or friends lists which is up from a little over half. So that’s basically a 20 percent increase in just a couple years. Forty-four percent have deleted comments that people have made on their profile, which is up from a third two years ago. Same thing, a rise in people removing their names from photo tags. Again, just up from a couple years ago. Digging into this by age demographic, it gets even more interesting because the older and actually the more educated you are, according to this data, the more privacy centric you tend to be.
Jim: Right. This reminds me of a cartoon I saw on Facebook, appropriately. It was a cartoon and it was something like, remember in 2000 when getting emails, you were like, “Wow. I’ve got email.”
Eric: You got mail.
Jim: Right. And then it was like today, “Oh, crap. I’ve got a thousand emails.” This just seems very right on target with what we’re talking about. Social media has gotten past the hump. We’ve gotten to the teenage years, or whatever years you want to call it, and now it’s kind of like, “Oh my gosh. This is too much.” And I think that’s probably why a lot of these people are like, “Well, it was really fun in the beginning to have all my photos tagged and to be part of all this stuff, and now it’s like, ‘Well, wait a minute.'”
Eric: It’s work. It’s becoming work.
Jim: It’s work. You’re right. It’s annoying when people tag you with things that you don’t want to be tagged on. Also, people are worrying about what their boss is going to see or what a recruiter’s going to see, or things like that. I tell you right now, I’m 40 years old. I’m thankful that we did not have Facebook and video cameras when we were teenagers in high school and college. Can you imagine?
Eric: You are not the first person to say that to me.
Jim: Can you imagine all of the stuff that your idiot buddy from 1989 drags out, scans, and starts putting pictures of you up. It would be horrible.
Eric: I shudder to think what would be on Google if it were so easy to publish photos online when I was in college.
Eric: Heck, even just three or four years ago.
Jim: Right. So this makes total sense to me. Sixty-three percent of people have deleted people from their networks or friends list.
Eric: Are you a defriender?
Jim: I’m a little bit unique to my Facebook, to most people, because I use Facebook and I use social media as a business tool for me. My business is me. So the more connections I have, the more opportunities I have to get people to read my books and hire me to speak and consult and things like that. It’s a total business tool for me. So I don’t defriend. I only defriend people who want to spam me or want to send me naked pictures or ridiculous stuff that is just a waste of my time. But I don’t defriend, but I totally get it. Absolutely.
Eric: That’s interesting. So from the perspective of you, the business, you’re not a defriender. What do you think about the people that are subscribed to you? I guess I’m just trying to flip this. People are defriending from their friends. Most certainly they’re defriending and blocking and unfollowing businesses and brands. I think that’s a pretty reasonable jump. Don’t you think?
Jim: Absolutely. People are getting tired of it. Here’s the thing. As more businesses learn how to do this stuff, and any social professional will tell you this, this is the Social Pros Podcast, any professional in the business will tell you, the more and more businesses who try to inject their marketing into the social sphere, the more people start to get weary of it. Social media at its core is a social thing. I always tell this example. I teach classes for the University of San Francisco Internet Marketing Program. I always tell people when I teach the Social Media class, I say this. I go, “Look. If you walked into somebody’s Super Bowl party and just walked up to every single person you know and said, ‘Buy my book,’ and ‘Download my white paper,’ and all this stuff, you’d never get invited back to that party.” It’s a social environment. Facebook, Twitter, it’s the same exact thing. You can’t just go out and put that stuff in front of people and expect that they’re not just going to unfollow you.
Eric: Yeah. Let’s hold on to that thought. The Work It Out segment of the podcast that we’ll do at the very end, kind of gets back to this idea. I think you’re on a good path there talking about the crowdedness of mainstream networks. So we’re going to talk a little bit about niche social networks when we get to the Work It Out portion, but this is good stuff. Good stat of the week.
Jim: Yeah, it was fun. Don’t defriend me.
Eric: I don’t know that I’ve friended you yet, but I’ll track you down. I must admit I’m a defriender. But I’ll give everybody a shot, Jim.
Jim: Okay. Well, I will try to stay in your good graces on that. So you don’t have to defriend me.
Special Guest: Chad Pollitt, Kuno Creative
Eric: All right. You want to introduce Chad? Chad are you there?
Chad: Yeah. I’m here, Eric.
Eric: Right on.
Eric: Jim, can you introduce Chad?
Jim: Chad Pollitt is somebody that I’ve known for a couple years now. He works for a company called Kuno Creative out of Northeast Ohio here, which is one way of saying in the Cleveland area. Chad and I have become friends over the last couple of years, and I’ve really gotten to know him because he’s really good at what he does, which is he works for a company that does a lot of inbound marketing. If anyone’s ever heard of a company called HubSpot, a little small company called HubSpot, Chad is one of the partners, one of the biggest partners for HubSpot, and his company takes those solutions and helps people do search and social and leads and all that stuff. Chad, it’s great to have you on the show.
Chad: Well thanks, Jim. That was a great introduction. Makes me sound better than what I possibly could have anticipated. Thank you.
Eric: Nice to meet you, Chad.
Chad: Definitely, Eric. Definitely.
Jim: Chad recently spoke at an event that I was at and really brought down the house with some amazing statistics and numbers about the whole world of inbound marketing, and look, it’s all connected. We’ve got search, we’ve got an affiliate, we’ve got social, we’ve got the whole thing in internet marketing, it’s all connected. So that’s why I want to have Chad on, because I know he’s going to have some good insight on what’s going on in social media. First though, Chad, the audience needs to know, the desert island question, Twitter or Facebook?
Chad: Well, Jim, I’m going to have to go against both of you and say Twitter.
Jim: Oh, really? Why?
Chad: Twitter is the most fun for me. I find Facebook work, and one of the great things about what we do is most of it doesn’t feel like work. It’s fun stuff. But Facebook tends to . . . I have to be a little more cautious with the content that I distribute on Facebook simply because I have personal and professional connections in Facebook. So I’d say Twitter. It’s more fun for me. It’s more real time. Plus I’m a little bit of a news junkie, and I find that I’m informed more on Twitter than on Facebook.
Jim: Ooh. That’s a really good . . . you know what? You’re right, because I get the majority of my news from Twitter, man. I forgot about that. Ooh. I might have to think about my answer. So Chad, it’s great to have you here. Let’s talk a little bit about social media and what’s going on in your world with it. You do inbound marketing. What parts of social media come into place when you do inbound marketing?
Chad: Well, Jim, that’s a great question. I have, I like to think, a unique approach to social media, but there are some others that have the same approach that I take. I look at social media as really two things. The first, and some people who are listening to this are going to disagree, but the first, I like to look at it as a content distribution channel, because at its core, that’s what we do. We distribute content. Now whether that’s a blog post, or whether that’s a meaningful conversation, whatever that is, it’s a content distribution channel. And then on the other side of things, you have the relationship aspect. So what I want to do is work with companies out there and develop the distribution channel and develop content for that distribution channel, which drives traffic to their website, and then I try to coach them or we will provide services that allow people to, excuse me, that allow people to do the more personal type conversations. So that’s the approach I take. I start with the business side, and that’s the content distribution, and then we coach and provide services to listen and to have conversations, so on and so froth.
Eric: Chad, what are the usual business objectives that you and your clients are trying to nail down, when you begin an engagement and you start . . . I don’t disagree with the framework, at all. I think that social is an amplifier, and if Jay were here, he would say the same thing. He’d say that content is the fire and that social is the gasoline or the fuel. I’ve actually heard him say that a few times.
Chad: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. The business objectives that we go after is the companies that hire us, they want leads. They want good actionable leads. So we approach content two ways. One, we try what we call a generation two or generation three website. We try to deploy content creation engines, machines that are somewhat like magazines. They’re constantly publishing content. Then on the other side of things, we want to create what we call advanced content. So this is content that would be considered highly valuable, that solves people’s problems, and that people want to download. So they go into this quid pro quo transaction where they provide us with their contact information and their email address, and we give them what they came for, and that’s advanced content, whatever the business is.
Eric: What type of clients do you typically work with?
Chad: It’s really a mix, from B2B to B2C. There’s a fairly large brand in the United States and Canada that we work with on a regular basis that is primarily B2C. They’re our biggest B2C. With them, we do a lot more multimedia type advanced content, from videos and text message reminders and things like that. Then on the B2B side, we work with software as a service type companies, consulting companies, tech companies. It really runs the gamut.
Jim: I have a question. Maybe other people probably have the same question. I kind of have my own answer, but I want to hear what you guys think. How do you get somebody to friend a software company? I know that you use it as a distribution channel. I get that and I totally agree with it. But it’s easier for me because I’m the company. But if I was . . . why would anyone want to be friends with XYZ Software?
Chad: Well, that’s a great question, Jim, and I’m going to steal a quote I learned from you, years ago, where you said, “People only go to the Web for two reasons – to solve a problem or to be entertained.” If you take it to that and you really believe that, which I do, I know that people have problems that that business can solve. They’re out there. If they weren’t, the business wouldn’t be in business. So you have to be able to communicate solutions to problems as a B2B company, for example, or a B2C even, and do it in a valuable way. So, your content, if it’s not valuable content, if it’s not a video that’s real good or a podcast like this, that’s real good, nobody’s going to want to consume that content. So it starts with the content. You have to create valuable, problem solving, and/or entertaining content.
Eric: Yeah, I’ll echo that. I don’t follow very many brands or companies online. The handful that I do tend to be very either funny or helpful in terms of the content that they share. That said, I do follow the CEOs and visit high visibility employees from quite a few companies in our industry, and I think that gets down to a second question. In your experience, Chad, do your customers tend to invest in the brand presence or the presence of the people around the brand, when they’re launching social campaigns?
Chad: It’s mostly the brand that, in the client’s that we work with, although I’ve seen lots of examples of what you just described. But in the clients that we work with, a lot of them the senior executives don’t want to put that foot forward. And that’s fine. That’s their choice. I think here in the years to come, you’re going to see less and less of that.
Eric: Less and less of the apprehension?
Jim: I’ve seen some really cool ways people have been doing this. I share space in this loft with a photographer, and he realizes that people really don’t want to hear about what he’s doing. So he tweets and he does Facebook updates from his dog’s perspective, because his dog’s always with him. So he’s like, the dog is always talking about what Hal’s doing. It’s kind of funny. So you follow the dog, and you learn about what’s going on about the owner. I’m doing a lot of publishing now, self-publishing, and I’m learning a lot of fiction authors, this is really interesting, they are creating the characters from their books and turning them into Facebook accounts and Twitter accounts. Imagine Indiana Jones tweeting. Your favorite characters from your . . . I’m a big fan of the James CLavell books, so imagine if I had an engine from the Shogun tweeting, I could follow them. So, it’s interesting how other people are taking content and adding personas to it.
Chad: Yeah, very cool.
Jim: So what else you got for us, Chad? I know that you got a lot going on with your business. Anything else that’s on your mind these days about social media that you can share with the audience?
Chad: One thing that I’ve been thinking a lot about, writing a lot about is the convergence of social media into search, and I’m pretty excited to where this is going. If I knew exactly where it was going, I’d be a millionaire here shortly. But it’s exciting to watch the world of SEO, because that’s where I came up from, evolve into what it is today and what it will be tomorrow. That’s really search engines like Google and Bing scouring social media and building social media platforms in order to have access to what I’ll call votes of real people and real content. That’s what I’ve been working on.
Jim: I got to tell you, I agree and it’s mind blowing. As a matter of fact, Google has come out and said, I don’t know how long ago, it’s like six months ago or something. Matt Cutts, or somebody, came out and said that social is a huge part of how Google is going to work in the future.
Eric: Well, that was pretty much a directive from Larry Page.
Jim: There you go. Even better.
Eric: The CEO, he kind of refocused the entire company, cut a ton of products and said, “We’re going to do social come hell or high water.” If that’s a substantiation of what you just said, Chad, then I don’t know what is.
Chad: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: It really does make sense. If you go search things on Google now and you’re logged in, you’re starting to see . . . I did a search the other day for something, and I started to see results come in that probably wouldn’t have been there before, but they showed up because somebody I was connected with on Google+ tweeted about or posted them on Google+ or something like that. So they’re actually injecting results directly in. So I think you’re right on, Chad. I think that they realize, smartly so, that people would rather have recommendations from people that they trust. I always put it to my students this way. The logic is, if you are connected with somebody, so you have 5,000 people you can connect with on Google+, if you’re connected with somebody, then most likely you like that person. Isn’t that a fair argument to make? Why would you connect with somebody who you dislike or don’t trust, right? Therefore, if they are recommending things and liking things or + 1’ing things, you probably will be happy when you see their recommendations show up in your Google search. I think that’s their logic, and it makes a lot of sense to me. What about you guys?
Eric: I don’t disagree.
Chad: Yeah, Jim. The way I see it, over the whole search landscape, is that you’ve got a PageRank algorithm, where it looks at backlinks. Now I’m not saying that’s going to go away tomorrow, but I think this is something that Google would favor over their PageRank algorithm over time. Google got pie in their face when The Wall Street Journal wrote that article about JC Penney cheating their algorithm. (Note: New York Times did that piece) I think that black eye definitely set this . . . if it didn’t set the wheel in motion, it accelerated it.
Jim: Yeah. It’s really interesting where we’re going with this whole social thing. When I teach that, when I talk about that to students who don’t really know about everything, they don’t have any search background, they don’t know anything, they’re just learning and they’re just . . . the immediate thought is, “Well, Jim, why don’t I just, if I’m a business, why don’t I just go out and get as many people in my Google+ network as I possibly can and then tweet all my own stuff?” When you really look at it, there are a lot of businesses that are doing that.
Chad: Yeah. Absolutely.
Eric: Guys, we’re running up on our . . . so we try to target these to be under 30 minutes, and we’re going to be cutting it pretty close. I want to dive in with our last segment, and we’re going to let you answer this, Chad, if that’s okay with you.
Chad: Yeah, sure.
Work It Out
Eric: I didn’t prep him with the questions. So here goes. This actually comes from Jill, who is an Argyle Social customer, actually. She works for a small software company and she asks, “My company is already active on Twitter and Facebook. There are lots of new niche social networks popping up, like Pinterest and Instagram, for example.” She wants to know what she should consider before putting in the effort to build a community on one of these new sites.
Chad: Boy, Eric, that’s a great question. I tend to be pretty, I guess you could say, time averse when it comes to these new social platforms. I let other people get out there and kick the tires a little bit before I dive in head first. So I take my time. I read a lot about them. Well, first off, let me take a step back. Pinterest, for example, obviously, it’s going to depend on your niche and your customers, so who your target market is. If Pinterest represents, there’s lots of demographic data you can find online. If your target demographic represents that particular niche that’s represented on that platform, then, by all means, set up your account. That’s something I always do out of the gate, I go ahead and set up an account, and I toy around with it a little bit. But I take my time in developing a strategy. It’s not necessarily a gold rush. Although every once in a while, maybe every five years, there might be a gold rush type platform, but I’m always cautious about that. That’s the approach I take. I get on there, I identify the demographics, and if it makes sense, I slowly roll out my strategy over time.
Jim: Yeah, I’m with Chad there. Look, I’ve been doing internet marketing for over 15 years, and one thing I can tell you for sure is that if you want to get results, you go where the eyeballs are and you go with what moves the needle. There’s a reason why everyone just talks about Google as the search engine. Nobody ever mentions Altavista and Yahoo and maybe Bing. Everyone always just refers to search as Google, because Google has the most eyeballs.
So every time one of these new networks come up and everything, I like to let them vet out a little bit. I do believe that there is a handful of people who turn them into immediate success stories overnight, and they get written about in every blog. But at the end of the day, not every social network is right for every single business. Every social media professional knows this, who’s worth their salt. You can’t go into a business and just say, “You’ve got to be here, here and here.” You need to be where it makes sense and which ones are actually going to get you the eyeballs and move the needle for you. Otherwise, you are literally just wasting your time.
So it’s smart to start building a presence there, but to invest any significant amount of time into something that you know you’re not sure is just a bad business decision. And that’s what we’re doing. We’re social professionals. We’re in business to help our clients figure out how to generate more sales, more leads, and more publicity, and that’s the advice I always give.
The last thing I always tell people is, “Look. You don’t have to be everywhere. You can be in just some places. We’re going to figure out which one works for you the best, and then we’re going to hit that one hard and then we’re going to work the other ones in as we can.” What about you, Eric?
Eric: I think you guys have answered that question about as well as it can be answered.
Jim: Wow. Okay.
Eric: Yeah. I agree with both of you. I think, Chad, you basically said start slow, and Jim, you basically said go where the audience is. I agree wholeheartedly. To Jill, I would say, pick one, test it for a few months, see if you gain traction, and go from there. Obviously, you need to make your biggest investments on Facebook and/or Twitter because that’s where most people are. Maybe other platforms, but you definitely, it would be unwise, I think, to abandon the mainstream platforms in search of new opportunities on the niche platforms just because they’re not there yet.
Jim: Yeah. That’s really good advice. You know what? This has been a lot of fun. I do a lot of podcasts, and this is one of the more fun ones I’ve done in a long time. But man, every single time, they go so fast, don’t they?
Eric: This one’s fun because Jay’s not here.
Jim: Well, I didn’t want to mention that. Eric, I wasn’t actually going to say that on the recording. When we got off the recording, I was going to tell you that.
Eric: That’s the new theme, “When Jay’s not hosting, it’s make fun of Jay.” I’m sure I’m going to miss an episode either, I think, next week or the week after, and I hope that Jay returns the favor by saying mean things about me.
Jim: It’s been a lot of fun, and Chad, I want to thank you for coming on and talking about this, because I think you’ve got a really unique perspective from a company that does really big stuff in terms of inbound marketing and integrates search and socials. So I appreciate you coming on. I know Eric does, as well.
Chad: Well, thanks Jim. I appreciate you having me.
Eric: Yeah, thanks Chad.
Chad: Yeah, Eric. It was great meeting you, and I will be following you on Twitter, if I’m not already here, shortly.
Jim: Chad, real quick. How do people reach you and what’s the company?
Chad: Certainly. I work for Kuno Creative, an inbound marketing agency, just type in Kuno Creative on Google and you can find our blog, is where I write most of my stuff. And you can also reach me on Twitter @cpollittiu. That is my Twitter handle, cpollitiu.
Eric: All right, folks. That’s it for Episode Number Five of the Social Pros Podcast. Special thanks, as always, to our sponsors, Argyle Social, makers of data driven social media marketing software and Infusionsoft, email marketing automation for small business. Tune in next week for Episode Number Six. We’re hosting Jonathan Wichmann of Maersk. Thanks everybody. See you soon.