Can Social Media Succeed Without a Big Dose of Humanity?

Can Social Media Succeed Without a Big Dose of Humanity?

Mark Schaefer, Executive Director of Schaefer Marketing Solutions LLC and author of Marketing Rebellion, joins the Social Pros Podcast to discuss humanity in business and helping people belong.

In This Episode:

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Full Episode Details

Finding Humanity in Business

There was a time when humanity in business wasn’t the primary concern for consumers; people just wanted a good product. Marketers had a really straightforward job: get people to trust the product.

Things are a little more complicated these days, where the vast majority of customers see a quality product as a given. What they’re looking for is the humanity in business that they can connect with. People strive to belong, finding communities in every corner of life, including what businesses they relate to and support.

As Mark Schaefer puts it, your customers create islands based on their cultural values. By exemplifying your company’s internal culture on the outside and focusing on the humanity in business, you can connect with consumers who relate to your brand and develop your own community.

In This Episode

  • 05:29 – Why the power of marketing has largely been put into the hands of consumers.
  • 10:50 – Why social media is enforcing tribal behavior.
  • 14:00 – Why culture equals marketing.
  • 22:19 – How focusing on humanity in businesses can help people find a sense of belonging.
  • 27:00 – How technology can both help and hinder businesses in being more human.

Quotes From This Episode

“Your brand and branding was something that you told people. Today, a brand is what people tell each other.” — @markwschaefer

“On social media, if you don’t have the human presence or the culture to back it up in the first place, you’re in for a nightmare.” — @markwschaefer

Today, marketing is more about coming alongside people. Click To Tweet


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Episode Transcript

Jay Baer: 00:00 Hey, I'm Jay Baer from Convince and Convert. Welcome to Social Pros. I'm joined, as always, by my special Texas friend. He's the executive strategist from Salesforce Marketing Cloud Mr. Adam Brown. Wow, what an episode from Mark Schaefer. We just heard him talk about sort of the changing role of social media. I'm a little shook after this episode. Adam Brown: 00:17 I am too. I think even Mark was. In the writing of this new book Marketing Rebellion one of the things, Jay, he tells us in the book was that he got half-way through it and realized that he needed to make some adjustments. Which, I think, further demonstrates how movement in our industry certainly keeps our show, Social Pros, exciting. But it also means we have to continue to evolve. We have to continue to reevaluate everything we're doing from a marketing and communications, and social standpoint. Jay Baer: 00:46 I tell you, what we talk about a lot in this episode is social media used to be a lot about social. Now it's a lot about media. Mark thinks it's time to swing the pendulum back the other way. It's a really fascinating conversation, and a great book Marketing Rebellion. You're going to like this episode of the show. Before we jump into it I want to acknowledge a couple of our amazing sponsors including Salesforce Marketing Cloud, Adam's organization. You guys have an incredible new report. Talk about a state of marketing, it's called The State of Marketing. How many people did you interview for that thing? Like, a billion? Adam Brown: 01:13 We interviewed 4,100 senior executive level marketers at companies big and small. Very evenly distributed around. Not just the United States but the entire world. Some really exciting insights came through. One of the interesting things, Jay I think is, when you look at today's show with Mark and you look at kind of what we're trying to do with the State of Marketing report and our other advertiser and sponsor,, we're all seeing the same thing here. We're seeing changes, we're seeing shifts. We're all trying to kind of stay ahead of that curve. This is kind of one of the things we address in the State of Marketing report. Again, hope all of our listeners can download a copy of it. Maybe, Jay, you tell them how they can do it. Jay Baer: 01:54 Yeah. Absolutely. It's really spectacular. One of the things that's funny in that report talks about sort of the role of customer experience in marketing, which is a lot of what we talked about with Mark in this episode. Make sure you grab it. It doesn't cost you nothing. Go to bitly/jaysays. Bitly/J-A-Y-S-A-Y-S all lowercase to get your copy. Also, as Adam just mentioned, our other fine benefactor of Social Pros this quarter 2019 is our friends at, which is a community, a collection, a confab, a church if you will for big company social media managers. The finest of its kind anywhere in the world. If you are running social for a big brand you absolutely, positively need to be in because it gives you access to people of the exact same challenges every day that you have. Budget challenges, ROI challenges, KPI challenges, hiring challenges. All the stuff that you got to hassle with every day, all the folks in this organization are doing the same thing. Adam's been a member not just once, but twice. Neither of us are eligible to be members anymore because we're on the vendor side. But it is amazing and you will get a lot out of it. We've got a special deal where if you go to their website and fill out the application, and it is a screening process, they'll take really good care of you if you come from Social Pros. So, if you run social media for a big brand go to and I think it can be a huge impact on your career, would you say? Adam Brown: 03:23 Absolutely. Again, we promise we don't set these things up. One of the things that Mark talks about is that importance of community. That importance of the physical meetings and the digital meetings. That's one of the greatest benefits of is having all of your colleagues together physically, but also being able to pick up the phone, or get on a Slack, or get on a message board or forum and ask them a question and get an immediate answer. From someone who's dealing with the same things that you are. Jay Baer: 03:49 Right on. Check it out, Ladies and gentlemen, enjoy this weeks show with Mr. Mark Schaefer, author of the great new book Marketing Rebellion. Ladies and gentlemen, back on Social Pros. It is the man, the myth, the legend. Mr. Mark Schaefer, executive director of Schaefer Marketing Solutions. Proprietor of the extraordinary blog Grow. Also co-host of the outstanding podcast The Marketing Companion, and most notably author of the transformative new book Marketing Rebellion: The Most Human Company Wins. Mr. Mark Schaefer, thank you so much for being back on the show, and for being such a great friend to me all these many years. Mark Schaefer: 04:33 Well, thank you Jay. Adam, good to see you. Geeze, when you started out there I was looking around thinking, "Who in the world? I mean, is he talking about-" Adam Brown: 04:41 Who's he talking about? Mark Schaefer: 04:42 Yeah. But, awesome to be back. I love the show. You guys are always well prepared and fun. So, let's talk rebellion. Jay Baer: 04:51 Let's talk rebellion. Look, you are a professional marketer. A career marketer. You've been doing this for a bit. For you to write a book, now your seventh book I think if I'm counting correctly. Mark Schaefer: 05:04 It is. Jay Baer: 05:04 Wow. Mark Schaefer: 05:04 It is. Jay Baer: 05:06 For you to write a book that says, "Hey, everything that we thought we knew about marketing is changed, or wrong, or different." That's a pretty big leap off the pier. It's not like you are, I think in fairness, you're not really a career marketing outsider. You are a marketing insider and for you to say, "Hey, this is all wrong." That's a pretty big and scary thing to say. Mark Schaefer: 05:29 It was. It was. I mean, it was a scary thing for me to realize, to be honest with you, as I started getting into the research. But I think, you know, a lot of the things that I'm saying, and a lot of the things that you're saying about word of mouth are the same. They're very, very similar. Recognizing that the different, sort of, world that we're in today. There's been cataclysmic changes to how customers connect and discover and share. When I was growing up in the business world your brand and branding was something that you told people. It was an image you created in their mind through images, and through advertising. Today a brand is what people tell each other. That is a radical new way to think for many, many companies. So the book sort of challenges people to get into that world. Into that sphere. There's a statistic in the book I'm sure both of you are very familiar with. It was a very famous post that was created about 10 years ago by McKinzie that showed, they did this research that showed about two-thirds of our marketing is occurring without us. It's being transferred into the customer base. I mean, that was sort of something that always kind of haunted me. They actually went back and sort of refreshed that study. I think the number was something like 130,000 customer journeys that they analyzed across 80 different industries. They more or less concluded that loyalty is over. The sales funnel is over. The customers are in control. There's very little emotion anymore to these brands. So, the challenge of the book is how do we reframe our entire outlook to marketing to win in this environment? My perspective is, Jay, is this two-thirds, is the beginning. Right? The one-third of traditional marketing that's still working versus two-thirds. I think that's going to continue to shrink as the digital negatives take over commerce. Adam Brown: 07:46 Mark, I want to go into what you just said a little bit and go into the why. Why is this happening? Is it happening because ... We can certainly give examples like email where we as marketers overused email and it became spam and our customers and potential customers said, "Eh, I'm not going to use email anymore." Or is it that there's been a psychological shift in how people look and respect or disrespect marketing? Why, why is marketing not working? Is the tail wagging the dog here or is that we're just doing something wrong that we're just now growing accustomed to and comfortable and acknowledging? Mark Schaefer: 08:27 It's really sort of a complex cocktail of trends, Adam. But I think the two main things that are happening is number one, our consumers today are hyper empowered through technology. That's different than it was even 15 years ago, let's say. We looked at a mass audience. Today consumers are sort of self-selecting into like minded groups. Like minded islands. The futurist faith popcorn calls this micro planning, right. So, people are self-selecting into these islands. That could be on Facebook, a LinkedIn group, Twitter. It could be a Reddit forum. It could be a Snapchat tribe. That's where they're having fun. That's where the conversations are happening. Marketers are saying, "Geeze, if I could just get on that island of whatever." You know, outdoor enthusiasts, or people who love cats, or whatever. "I know I could sell them more stuff." They try to beam more marketing, more advertising at them. Meanwhile, people are on this island they're not looking up anymore at these ads. They're talking to each other. So that's the one really big mega trend. The other one, I think, is that ... And I think they sort of go hand in hand. Is that trust in businesses, brands and advertising has declined for 10 consecutive years. I don't see it going away. I think in a lot of respects we've done it to ourselves. Adam Brown: 10:02 Suicide, not a murder. Mark Schaefer: 10:03 You know, we've taken the social out of social media. We've taken the humanity out of our marketing. We've replaced a human voice with personas and algorithms. We've tried to use technology as this easy button, trying to find the marketing easy button that turns into spams and robocalls, and piles of direct mail that nobody wants. Like I said, they kind of go hand-in-hand because people don't trust what we say anymore. They don't trust corporate messaging. But they trust each other. They'll trust a stranger leaving a review more than they'll trust an ad coming from a big company. So, I think those two mega trends are really driving the whole thing together. Adam Brown: 10:50 One quick follow-up on the first trend you talked about. I love how you kind of set it up with the islands. Do you think today's consumer realizes that they have self-selected? Realizes that they have put themselves on an island? I think too often times people will self-select this island and then they'll assume that the rest of the world, the rest of the populous, is just like them and forget the fact that they have excluded anybody who is not like minded from said island. Mark Schaefer: 11:19 Yeah. That's a big question. It's a very important question. It's one that concerns me. There was a really amazing study done by the University of London two years ago. They sent out a team into 17 different countries in the world to try to assess what has been the impact of social media on the world. One of the conclusions that they made was that social media is not bringing the world together. Social media is not making the world more inclusive. What it is, it's reinforcing tribes. It's reinforcing tribal behaviors. I call it, in a nice way, it's sort of a self-selected island. I think that's what makes people happy. It's not just necessarily a political view, or a philosophy. It could be a hobby, it could be an interest. Could be a sports team, right. They're happy with their friends. Could be fantasy football league is a self-selected island, right. This is where people are talking to each other, they're sharing ideas. They're having fun. It's hard for businesses to break into those islands. One of the things I suggest in the book is let's think of it as an island, really. So, how would you come in? You'd say, "Well I want to be on your island." They'd say, "Well, be our friend. Create something of value that helps us. You don't have to be here all the time, but be here when you need us. By the way, stop interrupting us. That's just, like, really rude. We want you to be part of this but you’ve got to stop this showing up without invitation. We don't want that anymore." That's the sort of mindset, I think, that we need to really transform. It's going to be hard because a lot of corporate cultures aren't going to be able to do that. Jay Baer: 13:10 Mark, from a social media standpoint in this world where the most human company wins is the role of social media then to create what you call the Alpha Audience? Or, is it to serve that audience? To sort of be the conduit, that social media is the island for your 1,000 true fans or whatever the number actually is. I mean, in a world where ... I think one of the things I took away from Marketing Rebellion, which is a fantastic book written by the man on the show this week Mr. Mark Schaefer, is that in some ways customer experience is all that's left, right. That the actual experience with the company that really is marketing. There is nothing else. Everything else is just window dressing. In a world where CX is pre-eminent what does social media do? Amplify that CX or something else? Mark Schaefer: 14:00 Well, I mean, one thing I want to comment on. Because you made such a profound point there. I want to make sure that doesn't go by. It's not just the customer experience, but one of the best quotes in the whole book comes from Chris Savage, the CEO of Wistia, and a lesson he learned. He said, "I realized that our culture is our marketing. How our culture shows up on the web, shows up in the world, that's what people think of us. That is how the brand is determined today." So, let's take a step back even from customer experience. It's the company experience, it's how you treat your employees, right. Adam Brown: 14:43 Yeah, their DNA. Mark Schaefer: 14:44 Pardon me? Adam Brown: 14:45 The DNA of the firm. Mark Schaefer: 14:46 Yeah. The DNA, that's exactly right. If your DNA isn't lined up with this new world and the expectations of companies then it's not going to work. You can't fake it, people will sniff you out, right. So this was a very interesting revelation. Chris said, "I realized if I screw up the culture I screw up the marketing." I think that's a very interesting revelation. Now, think about how that connects to social media, right. I mean, philosophically we want the social media to be an extension of the culture. We hope it is. There's an amazing opportunity here, as you said, to sort of reinforce what we're doing well, and to show that human voice. If you don't have the human presence, if you don't have the culture to back it up in the first place you're in for a nightmare. But, social media is still an amazing, vital way to connect to these islands. To connect in a meaningful human, and authentic way. That word authentic is overused, but really in a way that makes people feel little they're acknowledged. I mean, I'll give you an example that I just ... A friend told me this yesterday. She wrote me a note, she was reading my book. She said, "I was reading your book and I just thought about how this connects to my experience with Peloton." So, the new Peloton fitness equipment has live instructors, right. They're connected, really, on an island in a community. As the individual Peloton users reach certain milestones this instructor will give a shout out to the customers. She talked about how this acknowledgement has become, it's just grown this brand. This huge connection. I saw this amazing statistic that I mention in the book. Digital natives, 50% said "It's really important for me to be acknowledged by my friends on the web." 65% said, "I want to be acknowledged by my favorite brands on the web." Adam Brown: 16:58 Wow. Mark Schaefer: 16:59 They're saying, "We want to belong." It's like wow, that's crazy. Being acknowledged by their favorite companies is even more important than their friends. That's a big message, and we're ignoring it. It's a big opportunity for social media. Adam Brown: 17:14 Do you feel like that's one of the reasons why things that are more behind the scenes if you will, I think of Instagram stories most overtly, are so powerful for brands who can kind of do it well. That say, "Look, we're not going to try and sell you anything. You're going to sell yourself. But let us show you what we're actually doing here behind the scenes and what our day-to-day existence is really like." Mark Schaefer: 17:36 Yeah. I think there is definitely an evolution that's moving in that direction. In fact, one of the things that some brands have tried to do is they've sort of tried to create these snarky personas. Like on Twitter, or something like that. Adam Brown: 17:52 Yeah, we've only talked about Wendy's on this show about 1,000 times. Mark Schaefer: 17:55 Yeah. Well, I'm not going to talk about Wendy's. But there's lots of examples- Jay Baer: 17:58 The only reason I talk about, and I'm just going to jump in there real quick. The reason we always talk about is that they get all of this love and praise for being so good on Twitter. I don't think it's a good strategy because Wendy's is only like that on Twitter. They're not like that on Facebook, or Instagram, or in the stores. It is a suit of clothing that they've decided to wear in one channel. That is not tied to the DNA of the brand. If they were like, what's the restaurant where they insult you on purpose when you go? The waiter's make fun of you- Adam Brown: 18:26 Dick's Last Resort. Jay Baer: 18:26 Thank you, Adam, yes. If Wendy's operated their business like Dick's Last Resort I'm like, "This is the greatest Twitter account of all time." But I've never been insulted at a Wendy's. So, then to be super snarky on Twitter I'm like, "I don't understand this." I mean it's funny, it's objectively funny but it seems fake to me. Mark Schaefer: 18:44 That is the key word. It's fake. I just saw sort of a case study of this where there's this backlash where people are wearying of this and saying, "This is an ad agency trying to hard." Adam Brown: 18:58 Well, it's the new real-time marketing, right. So, we went from real-time marketing, everyone wants their Oreo moment to now who can be the snarkiest and have brands interacting. "Oh, look, the pancake guys are duking it out with the paper towel guys on Twitter. Isn't that hilarious." Well, it's hilarious to people who give out ad awards. My mom doesn't give a shit. Mark Schaefer: 19:17 Right, right. So, I mean, I think that there's always some sort of entertainment value that's important in corporate communications and advertising. But I think that strategy is wearing then. If you look at the trends that I talk about in the book there is this huge, huge emphasis on stuff that's local and real. People only believe what they see. What's happening to me, what's happening to my community. I think it's going to transform another trend about this cause marketing, right. I think a lot of this cause marketing, which has been huge the last couple years, is going to look very shallow. Because it's like saying, "Hey, look at us we stopped polluting. Hey, look at us we're diverse now." It's like, "Okay, you're normal. We really want you to do the right thing. Thanks for telling us." But what does that mean to me, what does that mean to my community? How are you showing up right here? Another great insight from the book that had an impact on me was a friend that worked for Nike and he was responsible for some of the World Cup promotions. He said, "You can't, today, be in a community. You have to be of the community. You have to show up, you have to be there." I give lots of examples in the book of how even big companies are starting to do that. Adam Brown: 20:48 I love what you just said. I want to take that and take two things that you've just talked a little bit about, Mark. Mark Schaefer, author of Marketing Rebellion on the show today. Great, great book Mark. You mentioned a really exciting statistic and that is that 65% of those online just want to be acknowledged by brands. 50% by their friends and their colleagues, 65% by brands. Okay, there are some brands like the afore mentioned Dick's Last Resort like that are being catty and being clever but is that considered acknowledgement too? What I'm hearing is no and that we have to kind of take the story line, we have to take that level of engagement to the next level. Mark Schaefer: 21:33 Absolutely. Adam Brown: 21:34 I want you to kind of elaborate on that a little bit. What does that look like here in 2019 that may not have worked in 2016/2017? Mark Schaefer: 21:41 Well, I really appreciate the very, very excellent questions. It's a very important question because it hints at one of the big themes of the book around belonging, okay. Having these snarky little chats that doesn't make people belong. There is a belonging crisis in our world. I start one chapter in a very weird way. I talk about all this health research that shows how isolated, and depressed, and lonely people are. The rates of depression and isolation have doubled in the last 10 years. A lot of researchers are connecting more- Adam Brown: 22:17 And social media usage has increased- Mark Schaefer: 22:19 They're spending more time on social media. So, we think a friend is just a click away and it's not true. The more time we spend on social media we may be more isolated. So, let's look at this from just a purely rational business opportunity. People need to belong. They want to belong. Is there an opportunity for a company to help you belong? It's a business opportunity, right. Let's just be crass for a moment. There are ways to do that. Now, you ask what are some ways to do it? Salesforce does a great job, right, with their big gatherings. With their huge ... You know the events that you have on the West Coast, and Atlanta, right. One of the things I learned in the book, Adam, that had a big impact on me was the power of bringing people together. A lot of companies said, "You know, things just really weren't working until we brought people together. We brought customers together and everything changed. We had this connection, we had this collaboration. We weren't just an avatar anymore. We were a real person, with a real voice and a real smile." So, one of the companies in the book does, they've given every one of their customers a subscription to Slack. So they're in the Slack community collaborating and getting suggestions and helping each other. It's kind of a virtual way of bringing people together. So, it's like how do we help people belong? I'm not saying this is for everybody. One of the things I'm very careful about in the book is to not be prescriptive. I'm say, "Look, I'm giving you a map of opportunities here. Just look at the way the world is and pick what seems right for you." Jay Baer: 24:04 From a social standpoint, then Mark, would you suggest that brands find ways to create, I'm just going to make it real specific and tactical. I'm going to make it prescriptive. Would you suggest that they ... "Hey, let's create Facebook communities just for our customers." I mean, to some degree it seems to me that some of the things that you're talking about are things that we're sort of social media 1.0 when it was a lot about the social and not about the media. Then it became ad platform, we sort of lost our way for awhile there. Mark Schaefer: 24:30 Right. Jay Baer: 24:31 Maybe this is sort of the pendulum swinging back the other way. It's like, "Hey, what did we originally use social media for? Well, to interact with one another and interact with brands. The Facebook newsfeed back in the day, your Facebook page was sort of a gathering of the tribes for brands. Now, of course, it is most definitely not that. But maybe that's where Facebook groups come in, or other ways that you can use social to drive the humanity of the organization. Mark Schaefer: 24:56 It's funny because, I mean, you and I were there at the beginning. We can remember the days when it really was social. It really was fun. It was about human connections. You could talk to people at companies and then it got too popular, too fast and companies do what they always do. They automate it and they make it into an ad platform. It's sick, we've lost our way. I think the pendulum does need to swing back. You know, I think it's an interesting idea creating your own island. Creating a Facebook group or something like that. There are some amazing case studies where that is very successful. I was working with a tech company a few weeks ago and they were telling me an example where their user community, their customer community, already has a big LinkedIn group that's very, very active. This person, she's like a regional director, a European director for this tech company. She said, "I became so involved in this group and have been so helpful in this group they made me a co-chair of the group." So that's kind of an even better idea where you're not creating your own island. You become the leader of the island that's already there. Adam Brown: 26:13 You're just creating the sandbox and saying, "Here's some sand." Mark Schaefer: 26:16 Yeah. But the message, I think, that's a theme through the whole book is that's not easy. I mean you got to roll up your sleeves and you really have to- Adam Brown: 26:27 Well, and this is what we tell our clients all the time, convince and convert. I have to answer this exact question almost daily, which is what's the role of social media today? I always answer the same way. I say, "Social media is about taking people who like your brand and making them love your brand." Period. That's the answer. But, that's really hard when everything else you read and listen to in marketing is all about AI, big data, and machine learning. Mark Schaefer: 26:53 Yeah. Adam Brown: 26:53 Which I would argue is not really a recipe for human interaction. Mark Schaefer: 26:59 It's against everything I wrote about. Adam Brown: 27:00 Now, there is ... I guess there is a argument that could be made that you could use AI machine learning to be more relevant, and therefore more human, because you're not wasting people's time. But, I think that's sort of tilting at windmills a little bit. It's hard. Mark Schaefer: 27:17 At least right now. Adam Brown: 27:17 Yeah. I mean, it's tricky. Then you look at people, say, "All right, well, geeze look at the success of Apple, or Amazon. Those are human companies, in fact they're manifestly inhuman." So then they kind of throw out straw man there. So what do you think? Mark Schaefer: 27:33 Well, I mean I think we have to sort of reframe where technology fits in the social media world. You're right, we've had this tendency to over automate and to over algorithm, and to really become soulless in our approach. But I think there is some sort of a way that we can use technology in a way that's transparent. That doesn't become a wall between people, but becomes a way that we bring people and real faces together. I think eventually AI could save us time, could create insights to help us be more human. To give us the time to be more human. Now, will a company recognize that or will they say, "Oh, we have more time now. Let's cut that person." Hopefully that's not what's going to happen. But I think what's on the cover of my book, and it's like the last statement in the book is, "The most human company's going to win." That's the killer app in this world because that's what people have in their hearts. That's what they desire. People aren't seeing your ads. If they see your ads they don't believe your ads. They believe each other. So we don't have a choice but to be invited into these human conversations. Adam Brown: 28:52 Mark, I love that. The most human company is going to win. The way that you end, and resolve Marketing Rebellion. Now, Mark, I know one of the things you told us a little bit before the show started was this wasn't kind of where you thought the book was going to go. About half-way through the book you realized your hypothesis was- Mark Schaefer: 29:11 I had a crisis. Adam Brown: 29:13 There's a writing crisis. Talk to us a little bit about that. Jay Baer: 29:16 Rebellion. Adam Brown: 29:17 Yep. Mark Schaefer: 29:18 Well, one of the things, one of my commitments, and one of the things I hope that people know about me is that I don't swing case studies to kind of fit an agenda. I don't try to make things fit into something. I'm a teacher and I want to look at the truth. I want to look at the data and I want to present something that's real. I've never had a plan, I don't have a strategy. I've got to write a book this year, this year, this year. What prompts me is I get curious. I see problem that I can't resolve. One of the themes I started seeing is everywhere I went in the world even CMOs at the biggest companies with the biggest budgets were saying, "We're stuck. We're falling behind. We don't know what's going on. The marketing isn't working like we used to. We're sort of frantic." I'm hearing this at big companies, and small companies. My hypothesis was they're not keeping up with technology. So that was kind of the original theme of the book, is like, in a world of AI and block chain and VR no human being can keep up with this. So, just from a personal strategy how do you deal with this stuff? But once I got into it I discovered it's not the technology that's gotten away from us, it's the customers got away from us. Literally, I just had this epiphany. It was like all of a sudden the runway was lit. I literally had this epiphany. I thought, "I don't know what it means to be a marketer anymore. This is so different than the world I grew up in. It is so different than the world most of my friends and colleagues, and customers are living in." I almost had a fearful moment that if this is the way I take the book what kind of a backlash is there going to be? But I think, "This is the truth." The whole world has shifted. The customers are the marketers. It's not us. It's them. It's a radical, cataclysmic change. That's why everybody's stuck. Because we're in our cubicles chucking this stuff out. We haven't looked up to see how the world has changed. So I just thought, "Well, I'm going to do it." It was really a great period of trepidation and I had to rewrite basically half the book, and reframe the book. But it was the right thing to do because it's the right message and it's true. Jay Baer: 31:57 I feel like it's a difference between being a taxi driver and a drone pilot, right. A lot of marketing right now is playing video games. It's not about ... Seth Godin's new book, This Is Marketing says that marketing is about creating change. You know, we used to create change by knowing customers better, and what they want, and their dreams and their hopes. Now it's become mashing buttons, right. It’s become clickity, clackity, clickity, clackity. Which is not the same as ... I talk about this all the time with my team even because I am of a certain vintage, pre-internet certainly, that my boss when I was ... This is intern. My first job. He say, "Jay, no good marketing happens when you're at your desk." Mark Schaefer: 32:44 Hmm. Beautiful. Jay Baer: 32:46 Right. It's so true. His deal was, like today people get all mad if you're not at your desk. Like, "Where are they? They're screwing around." His deal was, "Do not be in the office." Mark Schaefer: 32:55 Yes. Hallelujah. Jay Baer: 32:56 "Go to the customer. Go to the customer or go to the customers clients. But do not be in our office because you will learn nothing in our office." Mark Schaefer: 33:03 Yeah. Jay Baer: 33:04 Boy, I feel like that was ahead of its time. Mark Schaefer: 33:07 Now, by the way, on the Seth Godin quote I actually sort of take exception with that. Because I've got a blog post, I'm working on one that I'm going to be very careful with because I'm going to disagree with Seth. Because, this whole thing about marketing is about changing people it was a thing that he emphasized over, and over again in the book. Changing an idea, or changing your vote, or changing your buying behavior. I think today marketing is more, it's more about coming alongside people. I'm exactly the same age as Seth. When we started in marketing it was about changing things because the only way people knew about something was through your communications and your ads. That was pre-internet. Today, I think it's a subtle shift to say, "You know, I respect you. You can gather all the information you need to make a decision. How can I help?" It's a difference between, "I think marketing today is not about changing people. It's about coming alongside people and saying, "I respect you, how can we do this together? How can we really kill this with you and I together?"" I think today, in this day and age if a marketer came up to me and said, "My job is to change you. I want to change you, I want to change your opinion, I want to change your book." I'd have said get out of here, right. Get off my island. If you want to be on my island help me. Jay Baer: 34:34 Mark Schaefer, voting other marketers off of his personal island. That is the theme of his new book- Mark Schaefer: 34:39 You are the weakest link. Jay Baer: 34:40 The weakest link. The most human company wins. Pick this up ladies and gentlemen. You are going to love it, it's going to make you think. It's going to make you laugh, it's going to make you cry. It's much better than cats. Read it again, and again. Mark, we're going to ask you the two questions we ask everybody including you on your previous appearance on the show a couple years ago. What one tip would you give somebody who's looking to become a social pro? Mark Schaefer: 35:02 You know, one of the things I think can help immediately is to think about yourself as a customer. So, today in marketing we have this problem where we're sort of in this echo chamber. Things start to become real and true even if that is not the customers experience. We need to look at ourselves and our companies and think, "What are we doing that customers hate?" Stop that. Just please stop that. Just like you said, get out there and meet with people and talk to people. Discover their unmet needs. They're underserved needs. Find the things that people love and do that. Put yourself in the role of a customer, not a marketer. It seems to basic, but it would solve a lot of our problems. Jay Baer: 35:50 Boy, sure would. Last question for Mr. Mark Schaefer. Marking Rebellion and other fine books. If you could do a video call with any living person, who would it be? Adam Brown: 36:02 Mark. Mark Schaefer: 36:02 You know, I've never had a chance to talk to Philip Kotler. He has a very powerful impact on this book, because I reflected on why I become a marketer. It's because of his book, sitting in my class at West Virginia University looking at my first marketing book and he described marketing as a combination of psychology, sociology, and anthropology. I thought, "That is the coolest thing ever. Marketing is all things human. I want to be part of that." That's why I went into marketing. He's still alive today, he was on Douglas Burdett's podcast a while back. I used some of those quotes in my book. Because he's still as relevant and as insightful as ever. I've never had a chance to talk to him. But he's a personal business hero. Jay Baer: 36:50 Well I'm sure you could make that happen, Mark- Mark Schaefer: 36:52 I'm sure ... I probably should. Just my own laziness. Jay Baer: 36:56 Yeah. Get him on ... Aren't you still doing a show with Dell on occasion? Get him on that show. Mark Schaefer: 37:00 Yeah. Yeah. Adam Brown: 37:01 I remember that book too. Yeah, I had that book. Mark Schaefer: 37:03 Everybody did. Principles of Marketing. Jay Baer: 37:06 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Got to love it. Mark, thank you so much for being back on the podcast. Congratulations on another barn burner of a book. Marketing Rebellion: The Most Human Company Wins from our pal Mr. Mark W. Schaefer. I hope to see you somewhere soon face to face my friend. Mark Schaefer: 37:20 Thank you. Jay Baer: 37:21 Any time. Ladies and gentlemen that is Social Pros. Hopefully your favorite podcast, right. You're on our island ladies and gentlemen. We're putting coconut oil on each other every week, Adam and I and you right here. A bunch of great guests coming up in future episodes. We're going to keep the party rolling for you. Don't forget, every singe episode going back now nine years is available at Need anything, let us know. We're hear for you. Until next week, I'm Jay Baer from Convince and Convert. He is Adam Brown from Salesforce Marketing Cloud. This has been Social Pros.  
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