How Melanie Deziel Uses Native Advertising to Reel In New Customers

How Melanie Deziel Uses Native Advertising to Reel In New Customers

Melanie Deziel, Branded Content Consultant and Speaker for Mdeziel Media, joins the Content Pros Podcast to share how native advertising is the most underrated form of content marketing.

In This Episode:

Melanie Deziel

Mdeziel Media

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Full Episode Details

It’s All About Context

Many of us think about content in terms of what lives on our site and our social media platforms. It’s not often you discuss your content on somebody else’s platform unless it’s a paid ad.

Melanie has found that native advertising, that is your longer-form content hosted on somebody else’s turf, can be the best way to get your product in front of fresh and eager eyes.

The trick to making native advertising work for both you and the host is to ensure you properly align with the hosted audience, you have reliable sources trusted by that audience to back you up, and the format of your content makes the most sense. The most successful content for this type of venture is often created after you’ve identified the outlet and thoroughly researched the audience.

A well-thought-out native advertising campaign has the potential to live beyond the campaign and become a trusted and an embraced piece of content for a newly identified pool of prospects.

In This Episode

  • How outbound content leads to new customers in unlikely places
  • Why becoming a customer’s natural choice means answering questions about your role and the emotions associated with it
  • How approaching placement without a story pre-written leads to better, more engaging content
  • Why finding the best placement means looking at your alignment, sources, and format

Quotes From This Episode

A lot of the skills that we’re using are the same, whether it’s in a marketing context or the context of editorial journalism.” —@mdeziel

“If you stay true to the standards of the publication that’s hosting this brand content, then you’re able to see the same kind of performance they see editorially.” —@mdeziel

“If you’re investing the time and money, you want to make sure that you’re creating something that’s going to resonate with that audience.” —@mdeziel

What role do you play in your customer's life, and what emotions are associated with that interaction? Click To Tweet

“The real key with native advertising is to make sure it truly fits the context, both aesthetically and from a topic perspective.” —@mdeziel

We shouldn't feel like the only form is long form. Click To Tweet

Reliable sources are key. They give you third-party credibility that you need when you’re a guest of some other environment.” —@mdeziel


Content Pros Lightning Round

Do you see a world where sponsored or native content is going to be creeping into Netflix?
I can very easily imagine an environment where a brand has created a mini-documentary, a miniseries, or a full-length film and placed it on Netflix as a means of distribution.

Tell us what you’re watching on Netflix right now.
I’m very interested in documentaries and understanding processes that I’m not familiar with.

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Episode Transcript

Randy:Welcome to another episode of Content Pros. I'm Randy Frisch from Uberflip. I've got Tyler Lessard joining me from Vidyard, and today we're going to hit on a topic that I don't think Tyler we really ever hit on, which is native advertising and branded content. So, I think so often when you think about it, we always talk about the content that's living on our site, and what content, and how do we organize that, and how do we send out content to our known subscribers. But the reality is is there's these opportunities to leverage content to connect with new people on sites that have not originated with an SEO search, or our marketing efforts. And I know it's something that both of us have been thinking a lot in terms of how we can leverage some of those best lendings with our companies too.  
Tyler:Yeah, it's funny I always think about the idea of there's like this inbound content we're doing to your point that lives in our properties that brings people in. But there's this notion of outbound content, which is things that are living out there on other sites and other places that are interacting with audiences that may not be familiar with your brand. It might be their first time engaging with you, which changes the way in my perspective how you think about that kind of content, the way that you structure your stories, and how you approach the overall methodology. So, today we're going to dive into that. We've got an incredible person with us here, Melanie Deziel, who is not only an instructor, and a columnist, and a consultant around these things, but somebody who's been living in this world of branded content for many, many years doing work with some really interesting brands. So, Melanie if you wouldn't mind, maybe just quickly introduce yourself and give the audience a bit of a feel for your background and what you're up to these days.  
Melanie:Yeah, absolutely. My background is primarily journalism. So, I'm coming from the hardcore storytelling side of things, and I started out at the Huffington Post, helping to build HuffPost Partner Studio, which is their in-house team that builds exactly the type of content you were just talking about. Content for advertisers that's intended to appeal to a HuffPost audience and give them sort of an introductory experience of the brand. I also helped build T Brand Studio at The New York Times, so obviously speaking of context, a very different type of content that's native to that environment. And now I work on my own as a consultant and a speaker helping to teach other marketers and publishers how to use tools and tactics of journalism for better brand storytelling.  
Tyler:So I love the idea of really starting with that journalistic to your content, and I think it's something we do talk about, whether you're writing things for your own site or whether you're writing things for a broader market, or for perhaps a new site or other places. So, maybe tell me a little bit about that. Sort of how did that transition happen from journalism into taking this approach to marketing content, and what are some of those key themes you brought from that world of journalism to your approach to content marketing?  
Melanie:Yeah, absolutely. The transition for me was somewhat accidental. I was in that lovely position we've all been in at one point where I needed to find a job, and I was looking for ways to apply my skills perhaps in a different area that I hadn't tried before. And that's how I ended up on the brand journalism side of things or the brand content side of things. Primarily, the skills we were using were the same. So I was still trying to find stories hidden in data, or hidden in experiences, trying to tell those stories in a compelling way that fits the context of whatever publication it happens to live on, and still striving to create really informative content, trustworthy content, quality sources, all of that. So a lot of the skills that we're using are the same, whether it's in a marketing context or in the context of editorial journalism like we're used to.  
Tyler:So, to give the audience a sense ... Sort of a tangible idea of the kinds of content that you've been thinking about and focused on, can you give maybe like one or two examples of pieces that maybe worked really well? Or things that you were proud of where you worked with maybe a big brand, maybe an unknown brand, to really deliver a strong storytelling message to an audience through maybe an interesting medium. Anything come to mind?  
Melanie:Yeah. So, when I was at The New York Times as part of T Brand Studio, I worked in-house at The New York Times as part of the business and advertising department. And brands would come to us and say, "You know we want to reach The New York Times audience. Here's at the basic level what we're selling or what we're about. What kind of stories do you think The New York Times would be interest ... Or New York Times readers would be interested in in that realm?"  
 So Netflix came to us when they were launching season two of Orange Is the New Black, their show about women in prison. And our approach there was very much a journalistic one. We knew that our readers were skeptical, that they were very informed and socially active. So, what we ended up creating was a 1500 word long form investigative piece about what is unique for women's experience of incarceration, compared to men. And, at the basis, that's the family. Many women are primary caregivers so their experience of incarceration is different.  
 We had a three part mini documentary in there, infographics, all the high quality multimedia content that we knew the New York Times readers were interested in. And, what we did that was unique I think is tried to use very journalistic sources. So we were using government data to create our infographics. We were talking to researchers, and prison reform workers, and current and former actual inmates to speak to their experience. So the final piece was very journalistic in nature, and the reason we know that that worked, not just for our own ego but outwardly facing as well, is at the end of the year, this piece was in the top 2% of all the content that lived on The New York Times. So we know that we rose to the level of quality that our readers had come to expect from the Times because that piece was performing just as well, if not better than a vast majority of our editorials. So, the learning there was if you stay true to the standards of the publication that's hosting this brand content, then you're able to actually see the same kind of performance they see editorially.  
Randy:That's really interesting Melanie. It's funny, as you were telling that story, I was trying to think to myself, "Okay so who should be writing this content?" Because I think one of the things that we often do when we write a piece of content is we start by taking the same type of writing style and same approach that we think about our brand having first and foremost. But, to your point in this case, where it maybe worked is it was written with the lens of how someone reads on The New York Times. So, I guess maybe one of the key takeaways here is start by thinking about where this asset is going to appear.  
Melanie:Yeah, absolutely. So, in that case I actually wrote the piece because I had the journalism background and I was in-house for that reason at The New York Times to help create these brand stories. Many publishers, especially national and large publishers, now have dedicated teams that they generally call a content studio. Well their sole purpose, whether they're writers, photographers, videographers, designers, something else, is to help brands do that to fit the context, to understand the voice, the tone, the aesthetic that is most native to that publication. So yeah, that's absolutely key. This wasn't a story about the plot or the characters, but really a story about the essence of what the show is about to help show readers instead of tell them that it was something they might be interested in, that it had implications for their life.  
Randy:Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean I'm almost rethinking a lot of the things that I've done in the past where ... I've been fortunate to have some of the posts that I write end up on Saleforce's Blog, or like Din's Blog. But I think what I usually do is I just write a piece of content that I'm passionate about and then I say okay where can we get this placed? Right? So in Tyler and my world, that's more how we sometimes think of maybe the closest thing to native advertising. Now Tyler, I don't know. When you've written posts that have appeared in a guest way or your company's done video'd, do you guys usually think about where that's going to live first?  
Tyler:Yeah. It's funny. I mean you're right. I think more often than not we take the topic we want to explore. We write that and then we figure out does this fit on our blog? Is it something we can pitch to others? But there certainly have been times where we've created a piece that is really targeting a specific outlet. And we've often done that, say, with our CEO when we're writing maybe a broader kind of byline article on entrepreneurship or on a culture and things like that that are less specific to our industry. That's always been a great tactic where we say we're going to target INK, or again Entrepreneur magazine, or and try to align to what's happening there. And I think for those broader pieces, you're absolutely right. You have to think about the outlet, the readership, the style, and then of course like anything, do your research on what other topics have actually done well on those outlets that kind of give a good indicator of what that audience might be interested in.  
Melanie:When I'm talking about native advertising, I make a lot of dating analogies because I think it helps people understand in a way you're asking a publisher to introduce you to their friends, right? I mean you're kind of agreeing ... Letting a publisher set you up so to speak, with their audience. And the environment we're talking about where we create content and then try to place it is a little bit like saying, "Saturday, I'm going to go on a date. We're going to go rock climbing. Now let me see if I can find someone to go with me, instead of meeting someone, understanding what their interests are and then sculpting something, an experience to fit their interests." So yeah I mean both can certainly work, but I think when you're talking about a very targeted publication and these are paid placements ... So if you're investing the time and money, you want to make sure that you're creating something that's really going to resonate with that audience, that has an element of personalization to what they're used to seeing there, the experience they're used to having on that publication.  
Randy:So I'm curious in terms of the type of success that you described earlier where, became one of the most read pieces of content on The New York Times. When you're dealing with someone like Netflix, aside from views and clicks, what other type of ways are they measuring ROI on these types of campaigns?  
Melanie:Yeah I think broadly speaking there's usually three types of campaigns, and it's similar to the other campaigns we do outside of content, right? You have awareness, engagement, and conversion. And content tends to work best higher in the funnel with most publications because we're not used to seeing product focused messages when we're reading The New York Times, or INK, or some of these other publications that you might be partnering with. So what's most native to those environments are things that inform you, things that teach you something, content that entertains you in some way. But you are actually able to focus more on the conversion and if you're working with a publication, that normally has product integrations anyway. So an example I always give is you think about something like InStyle magazine or Cosmo which I know you guys probably are not picking up a subscription, picking up copies of those two.  
Randy:Come on- We have lives. We have wives. So, yeah I will admit I've put that magazine on the tread way at the store. Not always-  
Melanie:There you go.  
Randy:... worth the time but yeah, got to do it.  
Melanie:But if you're thinking about magazines like that they're chock-full of product references. They're showing you how to get the look, how to create a makeup look, things like that. It's very natural for a product focused message to be in that environment. So oftentimes when a brand is looking to make more product focused content, I recommend that they find a publication that has those kinds of product messages in their editorial content because that's going to be your best bet of being able to have a product focused message that fits well.  
Randy:So I'm wondering ... Yeah I'm going to put you on the spot Melanie and I think all of us can understand first of all where so many people are fans of Orange Is the New Black, and Netflix is a whole ... It's so relatable in our consumer lives, but maybe even a B to C solution that you've worked with that's maybe less sexy, right? One that's not as fun, not as easy because I think some people listening to this are saying to themselves, "Okay. I'd love to try this, but I just don't really know what's going to be that topic that's going to connect with people and link them to my solution." Do you have any examples of even clients you've worked with that maybe don't have that same sex appeal.  
Melanie:Yeah, I get this question a lot because everyone says that, right? Like, "Well, I'm an accountant, or a funeral director. There's not content that I can make that is exciting or fun." And sometimes rightfully so. The one example that I'll ... Or the process that I'll give and then we can do an example as well is to think about the role you play in your customer's life. What do you help them achieve? What do you help them prevent? What questions are you answering for them? How are you impacting their day-to-day lives?  
 And then the second one would be what emotions are associated with what you do? So in that example of a funeral director, obviously there are some sensitivities around that. But your customers, you know they have a lot of questions and they're also dealing with some emotional elements when they're engaging with you as a brand. So, you can provide them information on steps that they need to take when they've lost a loved on. How to go about booking flowers for a service? What are some of the considerations when you're planning for the estate or for the family's comfort on the day of those events?  
 All of those things, while not necessarily fun and sexy in the way that Netflix might get to be, are very important for customers and provide them with a lot of value outside of just your service. So those are the two ... What role do you play in your customer's life, and what emotions are associated with that interaction? Because if you can create content around those two things, you'll be able to provide a lot of value that makes you the natural choice when they have to make a purchase decision related to those two things.  
Randy:That makes a lot of sense. Okay now you've had time to think. What's the ... Who you going to put out there as a product that's less sexy? Who you going to roast now?  
Melanie:It's tough because I actually ... I think a lot of brands do a good job of this. Someone who ... Maybe you can give me an example of a type of company and I can call one up. But I think there are a lot of finance brands that actually do a really good job of this. So you don't think on it's face of a company like Amex, or Bank of America, or Goldman Sachs as a particularly lovable company or a particularly fun company. But they actually do an incredible amount of education when it comes to finance and I think that's so, so important for that ad category in particular. People are very intimidated by finance oftentimes and something like a guide to planning for retirement, or how to have a conversation with your spouse about managing shared finances, those things provide a ton of value to their consumers, even if they're not a fun, entertaining video that would end up being off brand. They can be informative in that way and service their customers.  
Randy:I think that's great advice. We're going to take a quick break here on Content Pros and then we're going to be back with Melanie to dig more into native advertising.  
Tyler:Welcome back to Content Pros. Tyler Lessard, Randy Frisch here along with Melanie Deziel talking about branded content and how to get interesting stories out there in the broader world in media publications and online publications, rather than just focusing on your own website. Now one of the things that is top in line for me as I think about this is not just how to create that great content but how do I get it out there? How do I actually either establish relationships with these media publications to get my content out there, or what are the mechanisms if I need to go and actually get placement as a native ad? So how do you approach that? How is the common business actually take those steps to getting their content out there and working with these media outlets?  
Randy:Yeah. In the case of big brands who are working with agencies, it's usually through a request for proposal process. So those agencies or the brands directly are reaching out to publications that they feel they have an alignment with, and proposing that they work together. Obviously, there are budget conversation that need to happen because these are paid placements as opposed to PR placements you might be used to on the free side of things.  
 So if you're a small local brand, I don't want you to feel this is unapproachable because a recent study by the Knight Foundation showed that more than 51% of local news sites are now offering native ads as well. So there's a really good chance that there is a website, magazine, newspaper in your local market that captures your ideal consumer who has an opportunity for you to do some storytelling in partnership with them. So that process is obviously going to vary by publication, but most often you can just get in touch with the sales team, the advertising team, the business team of those publications. Do a little thinking about who you think is reading some of your local publications. What are you reading? Who do you trust? And get in touch with them. You can usually find their contact information on their website in the contact page. See who the staff is and reach out. Just let them know you're interested in some storytelling and see if there's an opportunity for you to partner.  
 Obviously, their pricing is going to vary, but oftentimes you can have a sponsored story with a local publication for a three digit price tag or a four digit price tag, low four digits. So if there's definitely something out there in your budget, in your local market, you don't need to stress about the fact that you can't partner with The New York Times, or some of these big publishers who are doing it at a much higher price point.  
Tyler:Yeah and I think one thing that was interesting that stuck out to me was that, again we often think we have to write the content and then go out and try to get it placed or pay to have it placed. But it sounds like that's not always the case. You can approach these media outlets without necessarily a story written and look for is there an opportunity and if so, you can work with them collectively to identify the topic and maybe even get it developed. Is that the case?  
Melanie:Yeah, absolutely. In many cases, these publications are going to have their own team, or perhaps just some freelancers that they know and trust who understand the voice of the publication, and they'll certainly help you come up with something because the real advantage here is you do get that storytelling expertise. You get the insights into what the readers of that publication usually engage with so that you can create something that's going to be aligned with that. You can certainly go the old school advertorial model. "Hey we wrote this. We're going to buy a full page ad and happen to put some words on it." But the real key with native advertising is to make sure it truly fits the context, both aesthetically and from a topic perspective with the publication that's playing host.  
Tyler:And are there different types of, I guess, media and approach to the way people are using native advertising? 'Cause I think about there's the traditional written article and the digital version of that. But even things like, I mean, here we're on a podcast and I'm not suggesting this is a native advertisement for you, Melanie, or anybody else who's on our show. But things like podcasts and other things also offer great opportunities for people to get out there and to build a story and to get it into the market in either a paid or a non-paid context. So are there different mediums and different ways people are doing this, or is it primarily through those digital media sites in traditional text format?  
Melanie:Yeah. At its broadest level, I always remind people, when we say native advertising, it's not really a noun. Native is an adjective that describes the advertising itself. So it's referring to any kind of advertising that's organic, that belongs, that's natural to its content, or to its context. The same way that you're native to New York, or a plant is native to a region, native advertising is just something that is specially designed to really fit the context where it's being presented and consumed. So a native ad in a podcast environment is one of you all doing a readout of a sponsor because we are used to your voice. We know and love it, and so having it come from you makes it feel natural for this environment. And you can truly find a way to advertise natively in almost any environment. It just requires a consciousness for the context, the user intent when they're there, the experience, how do they navigate around, and understanding the value that that environment puts forth normally so you can make sure your advertisement is presenting the same level of value.  
Randy:That's actually interesting. There's something I think you'd find fun, and this was a while back before you and I were doing this podcast together. We had a guest on from The Onion who was talking about the ability to even create these video stories, where they were creating almost like SNL style skits that were sponsored native ads in a sense, but they were engaging content. So I think as marketers, one of the things that Melanie's digging in on here is we shouldn't feel like the only form is long form. Yeah. The idea is how do we connect with the audience, just as we do on a day-to-day basis.  
Melanie:Exactly, and when you think about the social networks that we all use on a regular basis, when you're on Facebook, what's native in that environment is a story in your feed. You see a sponsored story or same thing on Instagram right? It's a photo or a video that's sponsored and appears in your feed. So yeah, you're not really limited from a format perspective. It can be everything from images, articles, long form, short form, video, augmented reality, whatever it is that that context normally presents. If you can do something from an advertising perspective that's the same level of quality and you find a way to make it fit in from an experience perspective, then you've done something native.  
Randy:So it's interesting you bring up some of those social media environments that we all think about, and I think as we talk about stories and telling stories, one other one that I'm sure you're talking to a lot of your clients about is things like Snapchat. I'm wondering how that has evolved in terms of the stories that can be told there but also the consistency with which you need to continually hit those audiences.  
Melanie:Yeah, I mean Snapchat is kind of an interesting animal. What they've done is created ad formats that are native from their start. So without having to ... You can imagine a world where there were regular pop up ads or something that you might see on a mobile website. They didn't go that route. They tried to find way to have the ads be vertical video content in the same way that your content from your friends or brands that you follow might be. So they've done a good job of creating an ad format that is really native to the context and not quite so disruptive for users of the app. So I think Snapchat was smart to take that route.  
Tyler:So I'm curious as you approach some of these stories with your journalistic background, what are the commonalities in terms of building a great story for some of these different outlets as you think about native ads? What are the formulas that go into it? You mentioned things like having stats and whatnot really helped to back it up and you have to create some kind of a story arc. It may depend on the outlet. But what are the few things you try to bring into most or all of the stories you create for these to make sure that they're going to get the best response from audiences at this level?  
Melanie:Yeah, absolutely. You're totally right. You're spot on when you that it depends on the audience or on the publication. Because even if you think about maybe three websites or publications that you read regularly, say it's Wall Street Journal, Buzzfeed, and Sports Illustrated, those three all present very different formats of content, very different types of content, different voice, and different audience intent when you go there. When you're heading over to Buzzfeed, you're in a different mindset than when you're heading to the Wall Street Journal over your morning coffee. So the first thing you have to ask is what's the readers intent when they come here and is our story aligned with that? Are we going to present the same value? And that one is key because no matter how beautiful something is, if it's completely out of place, if you open up the Wall Street Journal and there's a listicle full of gifs, you're going to be very, very confused. That really belongs on Buzzfeed.  
 So you have to ask that first question about the reader intent and what quality are they looking for. So that's alignment first. The next thing you want to think about is who do those readers trust? And that pertains to your sources. So if you're going to be quoting someone or giving an example. Maybe you want to showcase someone's history. You're on INK and you're telling the story of an entrepreneur. Is this someone that the audience can relate to, that they will trust this information? Is it a reliable person to use as a source for your story. So reliable sources are so key. They really give you that third party credibility that you need when you're a guest of some other environment. So those two things are key.  
 And then the third thing you want to consider is what's the best format to tell this story? I think we've all had that experience of clicking on a video and you realize that it's just going to be a guy sitting there talking to you straight at the camera for 15 minutes. And you're like, "No, someone get me out of here. Back up, back up, go back a page." So if you have a story that has beautiful visuals, that has a really interesting environment, make sure you're including photo or video to showcase that. If you have a situation where it's someone sharing their expertise, that's probably best suited to an article or a podcast like we are now to let people listen to that expertise and listen to that perspective. Otherwise, you end up with a video that's dragging on, or with an article that leaves you begging for more visuals. So asking what format is best to tell that story is sort of a last step before you get into production.  
Randy:Very interesting. I love that framework Melanie and at the end of this podcast we always get to know our guest, but I'm going to actually kind of transition two questions in one. One kind of like professional opinion and then you're going to get to tell us a little bit about you. So what about the future of streams like Netflix, right? I mean today these days I still think of Netflix as pretty pure, right? It's ad free. That's what I love about it. But do you see a world where content is going to be able to be creeping into Netflix that's sponsored or native, and then the fun stuff is tell us what you're actually watching on Netflix so that people ... They're not really interested in your answer here in the future. What are you actually doing now?  
Melanie:Yeah, so it's interesting. When you think about ... When I think about what could be a native ad in any sort of context, I'm asking those questions we were just talking about. So when I got to Netflix I'm looking for quality storytelling about things that I'm interested in. The best format for that, obviously, is video. And I trust anyone who has an interesting story to tell. So I can very easily imagine an environment where a brand has created a mini documentary, or a miniseries, or a full length film and placed it on Netflix as a means of distribution.  
 So, just looking around my desk I have a cup of coffee here, you can imagine where Starbucks creates a documentary about where the beans come from, and the climate for growing the perfect beans, and how that whole process works. If you're a person who loves coffee, if you're a person who loves documentaries about food, that's going to be something you might be interested in. It would make sense for Netflix to suggest that to you. Maybe I'm betraying my own preferences on Netflix. I'm very interested in documentaries. I'm very interested in understanding processes that I'm not familiar with. So, I've watched all those scare tacticky documentaries about food, where they try to convince you not to eat something, or to only eat something, or change your diet and only juice. So I've definitely worked my way through all of those. Yeah.  
Melanie:That's my primary category.  
Randy:There's that scary one on Netflix now. It's like What's in the Food or something like that? Do you know which one I'm talking about?  
Melanie:Yeah I mean ... They're all there. What the Health.  
Randy:Yeah. What the Health. That's the one I was fearing.  
Randy:It's interesting that we bring this stuff up and we realize that it comes into our lives. You know Tyler, both you and I have young kids and I'm almost willing to bet that both of us are on the line to go see the Lego Movie, the latest one, what is it? Ninjago, right? Which is like, couldn't be more native advertising at the end of the day.  
Melanie:Yeah. I have a confession to make which is that I do not have kids and I have seen the Lego Ninjago Movie.  
Randy:It's all good. It's all good. It's all ... The Lego Batman one, that was like ... My kids didn't want to see it at first so I asked my wife I'm like, "Can we go this Saturday night?"  
Melanie:But yeah, I mean that's a perfect example if you really think about it. That is a straight up feature length film starring 100% products and it doesn't even try to hide it, right? It's Lego right in the name and that's what makes us want to go see it. So, there's certainly the potential there. If brands can provide something of value, in this case entertainment, or for us or for kids, they fit in that environment. They belong in a movie theater or on Netflix if they're creating content that's worthy of being there.  
Randy:I don't think we can wrap up the podcast with a stronger final point which is create value for audiences and think about getting it on the big screen. And I think this has been a real challenging way for us to think as marketers, Melanie, and I really thank you for taking the time to join us on the podcast. On behalf of Tyler at Vidyard, I'm Randy at Uberflip, we've really enjoyed having you here. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, check us out at There's a whole bunch of other great content that you can find there as well as a convincing convert where we've got a number of other podcasts with great content tailored to you. And please do tune in next time on Content Pros.  
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