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How to Avoid Overbuying Business Technology
Charlie Lynch, Global Director of Digital Engagement at Franklin Covey, joins the Content Experience Show to discuss choosing the right business technology.
In This Episode:
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Full Episode Details
Don’t Buy the Hype
When it comes to purchasing business technology, it can be easy to get swept up in the excitement over new gadgets and features. Unfortunately, this leads many businesses to break their budgets on things they really don’t need.
Charlie Lynch, the Global Director of Digital Engagement at Franklin Covey, has three great tips to help your business determine when you should invest in business technology and how to choose what is right for you. Chief among them is creating a project plan that outlines your goals and desired end result. But even more important than knowing your budget and goals, Charlie says, is focusing on the user interface and the size of your team. If you are purchasing technology for your team to use, make sure it’s appropriate for the size of your team and something that will integrate smoothly into your workflow.
By starting with these three tips in mind, you will set yourself up to make wiser and more effective decisions the next time you are shopping for business technology.
In This Episode
- How Franklin Covey adds value to their online presence.
- Why you should invest in people before business technology.
- How to develop a project plan.
- How to avoid being oversold on features you don’t need.
Quotes From This Episode
“Know exactly what you need, and hone in on those specific pieces. Not everyone needs an enterprise-level tool.” — @lunchmob
“Something that we really focus on at Franklin Covey is building out structures and giving people frameworks to be more effective.” — @lunchmob
“Have a project plan. Know your goals and the end result you want.” — @lunchmob
Resources
Content Experience Lightning Round
If you could meet a superhero, who would it be, and if you could be a superhero, who would it be?
Charlie would love to meet Spider-Man because that is a character he has always felt he could relate to. If he could be any superhero, he would probably choose Wolverine!
Randy would love to meet Iron Man because he is such a successful entrepreneur, but he would love to be Spider-Man!
Anna’s favorite comic book growing up was The Maxx, so she would love to meet him, but if she could be any superhero it would be Phoenix—“but not crazy!”
See you next week!
Episode Transcript
Randy Frisch: Welcome to the Conex podcast. This is the Content Experience Show. I'm Randy Frisch. Anna, we have a great guest this week. We have Charlie Lynch from franklincovey.com join us. I mentioned this in the podcast that I grew up with Franklin Covey. At the beginning of my career it was these binders that we used to use almost like a massive agenda where we lived before we had iPhones and things like that. Fortunately, these guys sold that division off so that's no longer what it is but they're all about creating better leaders, right?
Anna Hrach: Yeah. No. It's amazing and they do a lot of fantastic, amazing content work to help people become better leaders. So, it's not just the training that they do, it's also they have this amazing resource center where there's tips and tricks. Seriously, anybody out there listening right now, just go check out their entire resource center. There's some really cool stuff. Yeah, Charlie is kind of responsible for it all and they do global work. He has a lot on his plate and he wears a ton of different hats.
Randy Frisch: Yeah. For everyone's understanding going into this, Charlie Lynch is the global director of digital engagement at Franklin Covey. And, it was really interesting, even in passing on our conversation this week, he's talking about dealing with global offices. I can't remember where in the world he alluded. Was it Pakistan or something like that?
Anna Hrach: He was working with someone in Pakistan recently.
Randy Frisch: Yeah. I mean he's dealing with global scale, he's a global brand. What's interesting though, to me, as large as they are, he seems very grounded in his approach to how he sets up his team to succeed on that last important piece, beyond people, beyond process. It's find technology and deciding what technology is needed.
Anna Hrach: Yeah. And, Charlie gave a ton of amazing tips and tricks on this podcast about how to find the right platform, the right technology solution for individuals and they are universal. So, no matter if you are listening in your B to B or your B to C, all of these tips and tricks apply to everybody when you're looking at platforms that you can implement to better help you to either create content or manage content or just even manage and organize your team better. He gave a lot of gold on this podcast.
Randy Frisch: Yeah. I got a lot out from this myself. Just to break it down for everyone in terms of what you'll hear in the next 30 minutes, Charlie outlines the idea of setting a project plan, avoiding over buying, and maybe the most interesting one to me was considering the UI and team size that you have in terms of what technology's going to map that. Let's roll into those three over this great conversation and stay tuned at the end to learn all about comic books. All right, Anna. You brought him in, so let's roll with the episode.
Anna Hrach: Hey Charlie. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's really great to have you here.
Charlie Lynch: Thanks for bringing me on. I'm excited to be here.
Anna Hrach: Yeah, no, and it's super exciting because this is sort of round 2 because what people don't see is that we tried to record before but unfortunately our recording platform kind of was giving us some trouble. So, I'm Randy's really excited. I know I'm really excited to complete this interview today because we have a lot of really cool stuff to chat about. Before we actually get there, though, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself? Just so everybody knows exactly who you are.
Charlie Lynch: Thanks. So, my name is Charlie Lynch. I am the global director over digital engagement at Franklin Covey. We are a global corporate company. We deal with leadership training and corporate management, how to train your trainers, how to build out better managers within your workforce, how to look at your first time leaders. So, we build solutions around helping your company create better culture and better leaders within your organization.
Anna Hrach: By the way, I think leadership training is something that is vastly undervalued and overlooked by a lot of companies, but that is entirely separate conversation for another podcast. In terms of day to day content, how does that shake out for you? What is your day to day content engagement and day to day content responsibilities look like?
Charlie Lynch: It really varies. It comes and goes in certain things. I spend a lot of time looking at data, looking at user pass for our customers online. I'll spend days just building out videos. I help build and produce a lot of video content that we do here. I'll be working with our social team and streamlining what we want to do for campaigns. I'll help do paper click stuff. I kind of oversee all of that. But, we have a fairly small team. I had the, some would call luxury, some would call burden, of managing a lot and having to do a lot of the ground work and getting your hands dirty. I'll even do design work. I'll jump in to Sketch. I'll jump into [inaudible 00:04:45] . So, I kind of touch a lot of things but I have to deal with, like this morning I was on a call with Pakistan helping them put in their website for another global partner of ours. So I touch a whole bunch of different stuff, but it's exciting. We have a small team but we get a lot done.
Anna Hrach: I personally like that approach and Randy, I know that you wear a lot of hats, too, and I think you're a big fan of this as well. We've kind of talked about the role of the generalist but, Charlie, I think that's sort of the best way to go in terms of wearing a bunch of different hats because you get to do a bunch of cool stuff. And the nice thing too is, you can actually build out all of these amazing resources that you have and you kind of maximize because you do actually have a ton of amazing resources on the website.
Randy Frisch: I'll jump in there, too. Just for a little background content because I know this isn't what Franklin Covey is known for anymore, Charlie, but when my first job at a university we did this training for weeks and a big part of it was structured through how to use your Franklin Covey portfolio binder. Which I know is not part of the business now, but that stuff has stuck with me because it was really all about time management and setting priorities at the end of the day which I think is a big part of leadership training, too.
Charlie Lynch: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, we did the planner division is no longer part of our overall company structure. We sold that division off but it's amazing how much being personal effectiveness we call it, for even a leader, for someone who is just managing people or just someone who is getting the job done, having those skills is so integral and so important for people now days. And I think a lot of it's been ignored just because there's so much noise that it's hard to stay focused on what you need to do, but something that we really try to focus on at Franklin Covey is building out the structures and giving people frameworks to be more effective.
Charlie Lynch: You know, our main flagship tool is the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People which is probably part of the thing that you worked with in the net planning tool. It's amazing. I mean the book itself has sold over 20 million, 30 millions copies, and people still come back to those habits over and over and over again. Even I, working here, sometimes you know, what's the whole saying that the cobbler's kids have the worst shoes, or something like that? But we really lean on that content a lot here at the company so it's really cool to be part of that and be able to help give people great resources and great things that they can improve themselves on.
Randy Frisch: It bridges us really well with to what I know we want to dig in on today which is, how to set up a digital presence and how to go about committing or not over committing sometimes to software and technology and platforms. So I think a lot of what you're talking about tied to having the right process, having the right way to prioritize, probably gives you a good framework in terms of how you approach. Before we go into that, if you can just talk about what Franklin Covey's presence online looks like in their day.
Charlie Lynch: That's a good question. I mean, we are in 170 plus countries right now and our main focus is, we have our partners, we give them tools to build up and build out their own websites but we've been really trying to grow our overall brand presence and our SEO strategy here at Franklin Covey. In the past it has been something that the company hasn't put as much effort into and we are really trying to make people aware that we are no longer this planner company. We are really trying to change organizational development leadership training and personal productivity.
Charlie Lynch: So for us, digital presence has really been a goal so we target our SEO, we're trying to add as much value in terms of being new content, new video. We just launched a new newsletter campaign around On Leadership. We bring out a bunch of extra cool guests. We had Doris Kearns Goodwin who is an author of this new leadership book, we've had Seth Godin, we've had Eric Barker on, so we try and get all of these different thought leaders in place, but we really try to focus on helping to grow leadership. So, that's just one campaign. That's just something that we are doing within that space.
Charlie Lynch: We're doing our standard paper click stuff, we're doing pit advertising, we have a targeted social team that's trying to do a lot more to try and leverage our thought leaders.we're really trying to position thought leaders to be something that we can stand on and use as the voice of Franklin Covey and we are trying to put in as many good, sound digital platforms that we can grow with, that we can expand upon and scale as we get bigger, as our team grows.
Anna Hrach: That's a lot actually. So you have a ton of these amazing campaigns going on, you have influencers coming in to help create and write content, you have a team that wears many, many hats, and I know that you mentioned there's some platforms that you have in place that help you manage that. Is that sort of the key to overall success and maximizing bandwidth that you've found is making sure to have the right platforms in place to manage all of this amazing content and all of these campaigns and all of these things coming at you from all directions.
Charlie Lynch: I think it's a necessity. I think it's not the final end all be all, but I think it's a necessity for people, especially in this space of people that are listening to this podcast is to, some might walk into a new company and the system's already in place, but I've seen, from my experience, is a lot of times you have to look at what the problem is and if you can't solve it internally, really looking at what tools you can put in place that can help you solve that problem and how you can fix something or make something better, be it growing out a better email system, putting in a stronger CRM or CMS. It's the idea that, can SaaS solve all of your problems? No, but it can certainly help you mitigate a lot of those and make things better for the overall customer experience.
Anna Hrach: I'm really fascinated because I agree with you. It often times feels like marketers, especially digital marketers, they race to put these platforms in place so fast, but maybe they haven't done some specific groundwork first. So, when you first joined Franklin Covey, did they already have a platform in place, that you had to take another look at, or did you actually get the luxury of picking the platforms that were going to help manage everything?
Charlie Lynch: I wouldn't call it "luxury," but yeah, we didn't have-
Anna Hrach: Luxury, burden, you know...
Charlie Lynch: Our website was built basically, our original one was built with old CMS. I call it chicken wire and duct tape, so we had to rip that out. We had to figure out what automation platform we wanted to put in. We had to figure out did we want to do a global CMS system or what other tools could we put into play? Yeah, I did have the luxury, but I think it was also a challenge, and that's one of those things that I did want to focus on is that the goal that I wanted to talk about was giving some baseline best practices, things that people in our space, looking at content management how they can look at, what are some ideas to think about before they put in a new tool. Things that are very generic but really help you think about, will this do that? Will this do that? So that's kind of how I am looking at this and what I would like to talk about a little bit more.
Randy Frisch: That's great, Charlie. I think a lot of us as marketers need that. We need that framework to how do we approach these decisions? I think some people view technology as the be all end all as opposed to, it's not the be all end all. I always like to say, "Invest in people, find your process, and then invest in technology." Tech should be the last thing. I think what a lot of us need that process for how to evaluate and I'd love to get some best practices from you. What we're going to do though, we're going to hear some best practices from some of our sponsors first and right after that we'll be back here with Charlie Lynch to dig on to how to set up your organization and your infrastructure.
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Randy Frisch: All right charlie, so we are back here, we are digging in on the way that you've built up Franklincovey.com to be honest, first of all, it looks great, hopefully function really well for you as well and I'll let you give us a thumbs up if it is. Maybe you can just help us understand the process that you go through determining when to buy technology.
Charlie Lynch: Yeah. That's awesome. So, baseline, I kept trying to think of a few steps. First off, which probably everyone thinks about, but it's having a project plan, knowing what you want, what you've been looking for, maybe lining out, okay, I'm going to have these five different systems, and I'm just going to go off on the idea of, okay let's look at it maybe from, you want to put in a new email system. You're going to look at maybe active campaign, get response, [inaudible 00:14:21], convince and convert. That's just the SaaS tool that we are thinking about. The goal of what I hope to get across in this is that, knowing your goals and being able to know what the end all result you want, maybe if you want to call it a KPI, key performance indicator, what are those, and how do those line up first.
Charlie Lynch: Second would be, avoid over buying, making sure that you know what your budgets are, what you want to spend, and try not to get that creep or that overselling of the tool that you are going to want to put in place. And then, I would almost call this one of the more important things, is think about the UI and the size of your team. So, when I say UI, it's the user interface. Who on my team is going to be using it? Are they going to be comfortable using that interface? And does it make them feel comfortable, because if they don't enjoy using it, it's going to really hurt everyone's overall embracing of the tool, because the UI, the experience, the integrations, all those need to be thought about upfront.
Randy Frisch: Those are three great tips. I want to dig into each of them and maybe we could break them down, starting with the first one because I want to go into the UI which I think was the most interesting. Let's start with project plan. I think a lot of the times marketers, we struggle with that piece because I think it's just about getting approval. Right? To buy this technology I need to show my boss that I've got a project planned and I know what my PPI is. How do you think about when that project plan starts? Does that start when you've now identified the technology that you want to buy? Or does it start earlier than that?
Charlie Lynch: That's a good question. You know, I think you would almost start, it's what the meat is, it is, if you're overseeing a team or you've got a problem, can you think about, does the project plan start about, can I solve this problem? Do you start with even budgeting? Do you think about, okay, I need some money to fix this thing, what is that going to take? I mean, from my perspective is that, we knew that we needed to put in a new CMS engine. We knew that we knew that we're going to need some resourcing tool specifically in the case of Uberflip, we know that we needed to put in an email platform. I mean these are basic necessities for marketing, but when it goes back to the project plan, it's is there a value added putting into play, and when you scope it out, if you want to call it a project requirements document, your business requirements BRD, whatever, that plan should start at the point of, is it a necessity? Do we need this? Can we take the time to put it in place? Or is it just going to be a nice value add?
Randy Frisch: Gotcha. So maybe if you could give us an example. Obviously, these project plans become beasts sometimes, so we're not going to get through it on a podcast, but maybe an example of a detail from a scoping perspective you'd have on one of the solutions you bought, like email, you touched on, and then maybe, perhaps, something that was more of a KPI when you were ready to proceed with that, which I think will lead us well into your second piece of advice.
Charlie Lynch: In terms of, say when we were looking at email platforms, we were looking at, what was our real budget? Who was the team that was going to be able to resource for it? What integrations did it need to have? What other APIs did we need to have it hook into, we use Salesforce here, how would it integrate with that? Outlining and trying to put as many of those pieces up front in your overall scoping document, and then saying, we did basically a swat of what platforms are out there and what's the strength and weaknesses. I mean, you could look at Gardener, you could look at a lot of those great resources that are out there, I think Kinsey has a breakdown of all those, but we wanted to model it into what we had available, what was usable within the systems that we could integrate it with.
Anna Hrach: I also love that you just brought up doing a swat because I feel like doing a swat analysis is like, it's so cliché sometimes, but it is so easy and so fast and it gives you results pretty much instantaneously. I love that you just sat down and did a quick swat. It makes me happy.
Charlie Lynch: Thanks. Something that I always think about, is I try to have what I call an artifact, something that you can show to everyone. So when you say, project plan, people might just build it in a Power Point document, but if you at least have something, some sort of document that you can then pass around and almost dog pile on it to make sure that everyone's on the same page, because I've been on a lot of projects where it has just been people sitting saying, we're going to do this, do that, and you don't really have things that you want or that you can take away from, or at least a document that you all can kind of use as something to relate to and make sure everyone's on the same page.
Randy Frisch: That's great advice. And I think that does lead us really well into your second piece of advice because when we don't have that, when we don't have that project plan, or we don't understand what we're getting into, we probably teeter with over buying software, right? We see something really cool and shiny and it promises to solve for the end of the world, so we're going to now just buy it.
Charlie Lynch: Absolutely. I mean, I think, there's great salesmen out there and I've made some bad decisions when it comes to putting those things in because I was so blown away by some cool tool or neat widget but really knowing really exactly what it is that you need and honing in on those specific pieces is so vital because, yeah, you can always get sold a new project, or new product that seems really exciting and cool but really what you want is really two pieces of that. You want to think about scaling up but you really want to make sure that you are getting the absolute necessities of the things that you put in that project plan. So the idea of over buying, not every company needs this enterprise level tool. If you only have two people using it, focus on those two people that are going to use it because you're never going to need 8,000 different widgets that you'll probably never touch and might actually blow up the system and slow it down even more. So you really need to think about those things.
Anna Hrach: I think it's an amazing bridge into your next point because you do get sold a lot of times by sales people with all the bells and whistles and all the things that the system or the platform could potentially do, but then when it comes down to actually using it, again to your third point about considering the UI and the team size and who is actually going to be using it, the bells and whistles are great, but if your team doesn't even use it, or if they are not using it in the right way, that UI makes or breaks that final experience.
Charlie Lynch: Absolutely. I mean, when you think about what you need it to do, having a nice clean engine that can do that, a clean system, a nice simple dashboard interface is vital for the success of the team and the success of the integration of that tool because if they're not comfortable using it, if that can't just sit down and take 30 minutes or an hour to understand the integration and the pieces that you need to build out a basic campaign, their not going to adopt it. That adoption rate is going to drop to 0 and if you don't have good clean UI, and it doesn't even have to be clean. It could be based around the audience. I've looked at other tools for real estate and things like that, and it's built for that person, but as long as the tool and the people that you know are using it get it and understand it and it works for them, then it's great. I think, for me, understanding with a background in user experience work, is that UI is absolutely vital for everything.
Randy Frisch: Everything you're hitting on, Charlie, I couldn't agree with more, but I'm kind of put you on the hot seat for a moment and hit you with a challenge to this, which is, when you started on your first piece of advice you talked about a lot of the solutions that you know we need in our organization. Better CRM, an email marketing solution, and we are cautioned to not overbuy, yet sometimes there are those cool solutions that you didn't realize that you need yet, right? It challenges the way that you think about the norm. And I'm wondering how you make room for those in your buying decision, in your architecture, when some of them, to be honest, some of the things that we have at first glance to me feel overlapping, but when we dig in and maybe this hits on your last point, it's better built for that audience or that specific need.
Charlie Lynch: I guess to try and rephrase the question, you're wondering how do you look forward and how do you also think about things you might not need, or at least build out or understand what you're going to need. Is that kind of the question?
Randy Frisch: Yeah. How do you challenge the norm? How do you go outside of that typical marketing game plan? Or should you?
Charlie Lynch: I think you should, I mean, to me, I'm a data guy so you can always find more insights looking at what people actually do. But when you're working on specifics for a team and for a tool that you would want, if you can hone in and know what your necessities are, and if other values. Every company, just going back to email, they all do email and you know you need email. That's pretty basic. Is there specific things that you don't even know that are in there, could help you more? Yeah, absolutely. But I think if you can understand what that user is going to need, the user being the internal resource is going to need, and if you can have them give you some feedback on what it is.
Charlie Lynch: Now, I'm speaking specifically if you're overseeing people, if you're looking at how to manage people. The things that you don't foresee, you hope that this tool that you are going to put in play, that that company's thinking further ahead for what you want. So it's almost like, you want to basically be partnered with a company and to go back to Uberflip is you guys are pretty consistent about talking to your users and understanding what they want and making sure that those things are absolute necessities but also can bring some more value, like looking at your AI that you're putting in play and you've got on Uberflip now. I hope that answers your question. I think I kind of ran in circles a little bit.
Anna Hrach: No, I think it's perfect and I love that for everybody listening we didn't prompt Charlie to give an Uberflip plug, it just worked out that way. So Randy's probably jumping up and down.
Randy Frisch: I'm fist pumping. I'm fist pumping. I didn't even have to lead. That's great. Love that.
Anna Hrach: I have a feeling that this is going to be the clip that everybody hears on Randy's recap. This is fantastic. So Charlie, you dropped so much amazing, wonderful tips for everybody on this podcast. Thank you so much. You know, I'm sure that we could continue talking about platforms all day long, but now that we've gotten to know the professional side of you, we'd really like to jump over and get to know the personal side of you. So you've just given us so much on this and now we just want to get to know you a little bit better. Stick around and we are going to chat with Charlie a little bit more about what he likes to do when he's not managing all these platforms and this amazing global team of content creators.
Randy Frisch: All right, Charlie, so we've got a little bit more time here. We've gotten to understand how you evaluate solutions and building infrastructure at Franklin Covey, and now we want to get to know you outside of work. We always get cheat sheets from our guests. One of the things that you told us is that you love comic books and for everyone listening, we are actually leveraging Zoom to report this right now so I can see Charlie and in the background I can see an image of, I'm pretty sure it's a comic book cover. I now know you're not lying. You didn't just throw that answer in there. It looks like it's a legitimate passion, is that fair to say?
Charlie Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was kind of a loser when I was a kid so I kind of buried myself in comic books.
Anna Hrach: What? Or you were the cool kid.
Randy Frisch: Exactly.
Charlie Lynch: Definitely not. I have 8 sisters. I'm the youngest of 8. I have 5 step sisters. I kind of lived in my room, reading comic books and hiding from my sisters.
Randy Frisch: Where were the Marvel movies when you needed them? Right?
Charlie Lynch: Exactly. And MCU was definitely not where it is today. Yeah, I've always had a fascination with comic books. I've always loved the stories. It's a form of escapism but for me I think there isn't... And actually, I have two little boys now and I read them comic books and I've given them a ton, so for me it's not a true passion. I collect a little bit more, but it's mostly that I just love the stories and the ideas around it.
Randy Frisch: So, I've got a question for you. This is a true story. My son hit me with this question on the weekend. He asked me a two part question. I'm going to ask it the same to you. If you could meet a superhero, assuming they were real, which maybe they are, if you could meet a superhero, who would it be? And similar question, if you could be a superhero, who would it be?
Charlie Lynch: Wow. That's a good question. I could totally dork out and go with some indie book, but I think for me, I'd love to meet Spider-Man. Given the idea that, there are so many variations on Spider-Man but I've always been a huge fan of the idea of, you know he's kind of like this quiet guy but he gets this huge power and how he has to deal with it and understand what he needs to do with it. You know the idea of, with great power comes great responsibility. Blah, blah, blah. But I think, for me, that was someone that I could really relate to because he didn't have a whole lot of friends growing up and he really had to kind of find his way and then he gets this amazing superpower. So for me that's kind of where I would go.
Randy Frisch: And then if you could be one, who would you be?
Charlie Lynch: Oh, man. That's a tough one. I mean, do you want the ability to fly? Or do you want the ability to do all that? I think I'd probably want more of a Wolverine power where you can always regenerate and heal and you have these cool claws you get to work with. I think probably Wolverine or, I don't know. I mean, I could [crosstalk 00:28:26] totally go way off tangent on this. Yeah.
Randy Frisch: It was a great question my son asked me.
Charlie Lynch: What did you say?
Randy Frisch: At first I thought I was just going to give the same answer. My superhero to be was Spider-Man because he gets the girl, all the aspects. The swinging down the street. It's amazing. But my meet was Iron Man. I just think Iron Man, he makes stuff happen. I'd want to learn how to be that type of entrepreneur from him. It's interesting how everyone of us... Anna, you've got to chime in here. What's your go-to's?
Anna Hrach: Yeah. I will happily go down the nerdiest path right here. Charlie, super nerdy, the comic book character I'd want to meet, absolutely the Maxx, which I don't know if anyone even remembers the Maxx.
Charlie Lynch: Oh yeah.
Anna Hrach: Okay. Amazing. Favorite comic book of all time. By the way, I used to collect comic books as well, so I was the nerd sitting in her room as well. And then comic book character I'd like to be... I haven't thought about that one much. I don't know. Maybe like Phoenix, but not crazy. Can I do that? Can I make-
Charlie Lynch: This is a make believe world so you can do whatever you want.
Anna Hrach: So, maybe Phoenix but not crazy, or like murdery.
Charlie Lynch: Early X men Jen Phoenix kind of stuff.
Anna Hrach: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Randy Frisch: Very good. Awesome. Well, Charlie this has been a ton of fun. It's always great to get to know the people that we work with and we learn from and that's definitely been the case with you over this episode. Thank you so much. If people want to see the type of experiences that Charlie and his team are putting together, you can go to franklincovey.com and as we talked about there, you can just learn how to become a better leader, which I think a lot of us as marketers are striving for on a daily basis. We thank everyone for tuning into this episode. If you've enjoyed it, check out some of our other episodes at the contentexperienceshow.com or go to Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher, wherever you get your podcast we're there. Let us know if you're enjoy it. Until next time. Thank you so much to Charlie, and thanks so much for everyone tuning in.
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