How to Capture and Hold Attention With Curiosity Gaps

How to Capture and Hold Attention With Curiosity Gaps

Andrew Davis, keynote speaker and best-selling author, joins the Content Experience Show to discuss inspiring audiences with curiosity gaps.

In This Episode:

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Full Episode Details

Mind the Curiosity Gaps

As the deluge of content continues to grow and consumers’ attention is pulled in more and more directions, the strategy most creators have adopted is to make smaller pieces of content. The logic seems sound enough: There’s less attention to go around, so we should require less of it from our audiences.

But there’s another way to go about creating content. If you are making great content and utilizing what Andrew Davis calls “curiosity gaps,” you can successfully hold your audience’s attention as long as you need to. Curiosity gaps occur when you separate what your audience knows from what they want to know.

A good example of this is a cold open on a television show. The show opens without context, presents a situation that grabs your attention, then leaves you itching to watch the rest of the show to understand the context and answer the questions it created.

By creating around people’s inherent curiosity, you can deliver a quality content experience that captures attention and brings them along for a journey they may have never planned on taking.

In This Episode

  • How effective content brings value beyond the initial ROI.
  • How to capture and hold people’s attention.
  • Why curiosity gaps keep your audience coming back for more.
  • How to create an “implied call to action.”

Quotes From This Episode

“Instead of trying to make it shorter and more bite-sized, you can actually create content that inspires people to act and builds enough tension and emotional drive that they’ve got to know the answer, and they want to find their own solution.” — @DrewDavisHere

“A curiosity gap is a void between what you know and what you want to know.” — @DrewDavisHere

The best content experiences in the world need no call to action. The content is so good, it invites the user into an 'implied call to action.' Click To Tweet


Content Experience Lightning Round

If you could be any Muppet, who would you be and why?

Andrew has always had a deep affection for Gonzo! He loves the way he always has good intentions, despite how weird or quirky he can be.

Randy feels connected to Fozzie for his tendency to talk a little too much, but he’s very caring.

Anna is a big fan of Rizzo and the jokes that he makes.

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Episode Transcript

Randy Frisch:Welcome to the ConEx podcast. I'm Randy Frisch, Anna, you're here with me and we had so much fun this week on the podcast. To be honest, I was like looking forward to this podcast for weeks because it's been scheduled that long, anytime I get to email with Drew Davis, talk to Drew Davis and especially podcast with Drew Davis, you know it's going to be fun. It was exactly that, he brings such energy and he has such exciting stories from his background.
Anna:Yeah. I could listen to his stories and I even said this on the podcast, I could listen to his stories about being television production all day long. It's amazing. But also the way that he relates his background to content is unbelievable and it makes perfect sense and it just makes for great storytelling and really engaging anecdotes.
Randy Frisch:When I started to do more speaking myself a couple years ago I reached out to Drew and just said, "I need advice," and I had him actually watch a couple of the webinars that I have done and things like that. He just back with this, at the time he was talking about it more as a hook, was what he kept saying to me, is you need better stories to create a hook. But today we learned about a new term, a term that I'm actually in love with, which is this concept of a curiosity gap. Do you want to do your best to explain it?
Anna:Oh boy, yeah, so he does a way better job of explaining it than I will but it's basically inciting curiosity to continue engagement. Drew talks about the fact that we are so good with capturing attention with content but we're not very good about holding attention and really engaging people, and that's what that curiosity gap does.
Randy Frisch:Sorry, what was that? I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding.
Anna:Oh look at that, look at that.
Randy Frisch:Alright, well let's roll it with Drew, we have so much great content today and I believe you brought him in, right?
Anna:I did. But yeah, everybody you really have to stick around to the very end, because Randy you actually got Drew to bring out his best Muppet impression and it is impressive.
Randy Frisch:And that's a curiosity gap for you.
Anna:That is a curiosity gap.
Randy Frisch:Here we go with Anna and Drew.
Anna:Drew thank you so much for being here today, it is so great to have you, especially right after ConEx.
Drew Davis:I am so glad to be back man, ConEx was awesome, it was really a great event. I love single track events and you guys pull off an amazing event so thanks for having me.
Anna:And a little golf clap to Randy and team, right? It's a huge feat, it's huge, I don't think people realize how much effort it takes to put on a conference but you know. I've been staying behind the scenes and everything. So you know what before we even jump into sort of what you talked about at ConEx, why don't you give everybody a little primer about yourself.
Drew Davis:Sure, so I started my career in the television business way back in the early 90's. I worked in local TV to start doing public affairs programming they call it. So I produced a nightly call in talk show with this right wing Republican host in a Democratic state like Massachusetts and my job was basically to pick the least drunk guy to put on the air because it was on at 11:00 p.m. and they would just yell at each other until someone hung up. It was a great show. (laughs) And, then, I also -
Anna:Is there still footage of this? Because this sounds interesting.
Drew Davis:Oh Lord, I bet there is. I bet, the show was called-
Randy Frisch:We gotta track this down.
Drew Davis:I know, it was called Adler Online: what's up, Randy? It was called Adler Online. It was a terrible, terrible show. Anyway, I produced that and I produced the highest rated medical call-in show in the nation at the time. There was only one medical call-in show at the time so it was very easy to be the number-one-rated one, but it was basically like hypochondriacs calling in to talk about their illness and actually in the United States, the FCC rules prohibit you from giving medical advice on the air. So we would just talk around the problem and the advice was always go see a doctor. It was pretty hilarious but it was actually a very well received show. Then I moved on from local TV, I produced for the Today Show here in the United States, I started on Weekend Today and then did the regular Today Show. Then I actually wrote for Charles Corrault which is, if you guys don't know Charles Corrault, you should take the time to Google him and watch some of his stuff. He was one of the most prolific American television storytellers. And I learned a ton about storytelling from him.
Then I worked for the Muppet's that was kind of my last stint in television, and in the late 90's when the first dot com boom happened, I got a bunch of jobs in marketing which paid much better than television by the way. Like four times as much.
Randy Frisch:Even than the Muppets?
Drew Davis:Oh, the Muppets, let me tell you about the Muppets. The Muppets is a fantastic brand but so many people want to work there that they can afford to pay you almost nothing so I was living in the middle of Manhattan, making, I think my starting salary was $18,000 a year. I lived on pizza and just kool-aid. I mean, it was really tough to live on that kind of salary. But, you know, if you want to quit, there's somebody right behind you who will take that job because everybody wants to work for such a great brand. So it's kind of tough. But television in general was very similar at the time. My first marketing job, I actually got because a bunch of my television friends had started to work in dot coms for marketing and I called them up and I was like, what are doing. And they're like, "we don't really know. But we get paid really well. So you should do it." And I was like, okay. So I worked at a bunch of start-ups and then the start-up world kind of fell apart. The last start-up I was working for got sold to Lycos, and they shut down our office so I found myself laid off and decided that I could start my own marketing agency with a journalist friend of mind named Jim Cosco.
So in 2000, we started our own agency called Tipping Point Labs and we sold that in 2012 and since 2012 I've just been writing books like Brandscaping and Town, Inc. and traveling the world speaking to people like the attendees at ConEx which were awesome.
Anna:So I feel like you started off in television and then that was a little mini bio about you but I feel like that in and of itself is like a TV pilot pitch. Like that whole crazy story.
Randy Frisch:I was going to say everything's actually making sense to me now because and I'll throw one ConEx story for every one that happened. Which is, we put out a challenge to everyone and if anyone's the Drake or Shiggy "In My Feelings Challenge", we challenged our speakers to actually produce their own Shiggy dance video and the production value of yours Drew was like next level. Some people pulled it off really cute like dancing with their kid or something like that but yours was, we were all kidding as to who did the remix at the beginning but now I understand, you were on the Today Show and you produced the Muppets in a sense. So this is all coming together.
Drew Davis:Oh it does start to make, you know I feel like my career has been a weird journey where every move seemed odd at the time but for some reason it's kind of coalesced and all those experiences have added up to something that I've really enjoyed doing and I've found the value in every one of those experiences, so, I'm glad you enjoyed the dancing.
Randy Frisch:It's like Slum Dog Millionaire, right? He has that amazing run on what was the show, You Want to Be a Millionaire and no one knows, it's all his experiences, they all added up in the end.
Drew Davis:Same thing yeah. Exactly, that's right. I forgot what I was going to say, but yeah, it was a fantastic kind of way to learn about marketing actually. Because even as an agency we focused very heavily on making sure we were telling stories that inspired people to buy something without ever having to sell them something, if that makes sense. I think as a journalist and as a television producer, in fact actually that's what I learned at the Muppets to be totally honest. The Muppets, just so you guys know, makes almost no money on their television and film production stuff. In fact the first show I worked on - Bear in the Big Blue House - was losing $500,000, by the time I came on board and we had not shot one episode yet and I couldn't figure out why this was a good idea until I met with the merchandising and licensing team at the Muppets and that's when those two, there were two women who run this team, it was a very small team.
I said look we're really over budget and they said, "Look, I don't really care if we're over budget, because here's the deal. If we make characters and write scripts and create a show that the audience falls in love with, they will buy Bear in the Big Blue House plush dolls for $29.99. They will buy Bear in the Big Blue House sleeping bags and they will buy Bear in the Big Blue House interactive games and we will make up hundreds of millions of dollars on your little overage of two million dollars. So don't get in the way of creating great content, 'cause that great content will inspire people to buy stuff they didn't know they needed." Then was when I was like, okay I get it. Like this is how the company works and that's when I realized you could do the same thing in marketing. Can you create content so good that it inspires people to go on a journey they never expected and buy something they had no idea they needed?
Anna:I love how your entire, first off, I love that anecdote so much and because there's much debate about what exactly do we get from creating content and what exactly. But it's so much squishier than that sometimes. It's not this direct, hard line to a piece of ROI that we're looking at on a spreadsheet. So I love that you use these anecdotes, and you really tell these vibrant stories about great content in television and things that everybody can understand. And you pull this into marketing and you make it really understandable, and this has really been a cornerstone especially for your ConEx presentation. I think it's engaging and wonderful and it just really helps solidify the value of content in general.
Drew Davis:Yeah well I mean you guys know from the presentation at ConEx, like I actually talk about reality TV shows, and that you can everything you need to know about creating great content from just watching some reality TV. But not passively watching it anymore: actually understanding how they are leveraging the kind of content they create and the way they put it together to keep you engaged for as long as they want to. One of the big problems in content marketing in general is that there's a lot of advice out there on how to grab people's attention. Right? We've been taught that you can write a better headline, use some animated GIFs, create a listicle, you know? You just need better arresting imagery: your e-mail subject lines aren't attention-grabbing enough.
And the truth is, the internet age - marketing in general for the last 100 years has been about grabbing people's attention in a limited amount of time. You only have 30 seconds, you only have 15 seconds. And we are good at grabbing attention. What we're not good at, and what the internet age has granted us, especially for content is the ability to grab and then hold people's attention. And so, helping people understand that you can actually hold someone's attention for as long as you want - as long as you understand those simple principles from reality tv - can make a huge impact in the kind of content you create.
And instead of trying to make it shorter, and more bite-sized, and more snackable - which is a word I hate - you know, you can actually create content that inspires people to act and builds enough tension and emotional drive that they've gotta know the answer, and they wanna find their own solution.
Randy Frisch:I love that, Drew. And, yeah, I'll kind of take from both of our keynotes, which we'll hit on more after the break. But just this idea of, how do we do, almost what consumer brands are doing well in some cases? Right? They do loop us in. You know, I go on Spotify and, you know, whether I plan five minutes, I'm listening to music twenty minutes later. Or, as you hit on, people jump on to Netflix and they're binging a season. So how do we get people to engage in more content after we've hooked them? So let's dig in more on that, but before we do, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.
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Anna:Hey, everybody, welcome back. We are here with Drew Davis. Now before our quick break, Drew, you were talking about how brands can do a much better job at holding people's attention. So, how exactly can we do that?
Drew Davis:Okay. The key to actually holding people's attention is understanding that there's a deep psychological phenomenon at play when you're consuming content. It's actually called a curiosity gap. Randy, you mentioned at the beginning: Stranger Things is a show on Netflix that people will make time to binge-watch, right? So, everybody tells us we have no time: "I have no time to read your blog post. Randy, great podcast, I have no time to listen to it." Right? That's not helpful.
The funny thing is, those same people will say, "I made time to binge-watch two seasons of Stranger Things on Saturday afternoon." It means there's some element missing from the content we're creating, and that element is actually tension: and tension is only built by creating curiosity gaps. So, we'll go back to the very beginning of my television days, alright? So back when I very first started television, I was taught to essentially create a curiosity gap between every segment. So while a commercial break came on, I would have something that would get people to come back. So if you're ever watching the news, and they're like, "in a second, right after this break, we're gonna tell you the crazy weather we're gonna get this weekend! And you know what, I'm gonna give you like five things you gotta do to prepare for Saturday's crazy weather." And when you get that, that's a tease, right? And it's creating a curiosity gap.
A curiosity gap is a void between what you know and what you want to know. Clickbait is actually the perfect example of this, right? Hey, check it out: man hugs bear, you're never gonna believe what happens next. Unbelievable! And that creates a curiosity gap. And that curiosity gap has to be filled. So, when we create content, especially if you're a journalist, you were taught to create content where, you know, you kinda give people the salient information up front and kind of build this reverse pyramid, you know? Hey, give them broad insight and understanding of where we're going, then give them all the stuff they need. Well, it turns out, if you wanna create content that maintains people's interests and holds their attention, you actually have to create curiosity gaps. You have to really get them excited and interested in the content.
So, even on a podcast, a lot of podcasts start with an awesome quote, like a quote like this: "Content--no." A quote like this (laughs): "If you really want-" (laughs) "If you want to learn how to pay attention, you have to understand that attention isn't something you can buy and sell: attention is earned." And then it's music. Right, yeah. And people are like, "whoa! What does he mean by that?" Okay. And then, there's a bunch of banter, and then they start getting to the meat of it. Well, that's creating a curiosity gap. They're like, "who is this person? Like, what are they talking about? I like that idea but I need to learn more!" So curiosity gaps actually get people through as long content as you want, and that's what Stranger Things does well. I mean, Stranger Things as a mystery, is a whole series about curiosity gaps. And the more tension you build, the higher your need for closure. So you go from, "I wanna know what happens in this episode," to "I need to know what happens at the end of this season." And that need for closure is unbelievably powerful.
In fact, your need for closure is what forces you to click those clickbait headlines. 'Cause you know, it's never gonna measure up to the expectation they set, but you've got to close that gap, so much mentally, that you click the headline anyway and you watch a stupid bear video that never pays off.
Randy Frisch:(laughs) It's so true. You know, that's funny. Maybe I'm remembering Stranger Things wrong. 'cause I did binge it, in a day. But I feel like they do multiple of them, like they almost lead off the episode with one before the opening credits, to the point where you're just like, shit, I really - not only am I gonna watch, it's like, "be quiet, kids! I need to focus." Right? Put everything else away!
Drew Davis:Exactly. In television, that's called a cold open. And it's where they start the story in the middle of the story. And - Law and Order is really good at this. Law and Order doesn't start with, you know, the opening credits and some music and, hey, get to know the cops you're workin' with today. No. They start like: "oh, my gosh, somebody's gonna get murdered in three - oh, my gosh, they got murdered! Who did it?" And then all of a sudden they start back at the beginning of the story or they go to the cops' office and then you get the credits.
A cold open is a perfect example of creating a massive curiosity gap that you've got to fill over the course of 45 minutes. And once you're 30 minutes in, it's not like you're gonna change channels, 'cause your need for closure is so big that you've gotta keep watching. And great content and great content experiences are designed to do this: to keep you engaged. In fact, they just invite you to chase some answers. And not in a bad way: they're just inviting you along on a journey where you get more and more excited about whatever it is they're talking about.
Randy Frisch:It's like the opening of any Mission: Impossible, too. That's all that's going through my mind. There's that captivating jumping off a plane!
Drew Davis:Yes. And you're like, "who is he running from?" (laughs)
Randy Frisch:So I feel, in a sense, a lot of what you're talking about very much focuses around the content that we're creating. What's the topic, how do we write it, how do we build that? What about going beyond just the content that's created, but, often when we talk on this podcast about experience, it's how people are going to take that in, right? And I'm thinking about, back to your Stranger Things example, one of the things that Stranger Things does is it's like, I don't even have to watch the credits anymore of that episode. They're like, "do you wanna watch the next episode in 5, 4, 3..." It's like, I can't even find the clicker that fast!
Drew Davis:Yeah, yeah. Well, those are the kinds of things we need to think through. So, you guys know. At the ConEx session, the keynote I did, you know, one of the biggest problems with - especially case studies and testimonials that people create today for their brands - is that they immediately want to get their brand name in there. Right? So, they might even set up the problem that the person had, and then they'll cut to: "hey, when I started using Uberflip, like, everything got better!" You know? And, immediately, you're actually closing that curiosity gap. 'Cause people wanted to know, how did they solve this problem? So, if you're building a content experience, just even around a thing like a case study and testimonial, one of the most important things is to realize and understand the context in which they're showing up. So if it's on YouTube, don't label it "Customer Testimonial: Uberflip". That's not helpful. 'Cause I know there's no reason to watch that.
But if it's like, "How a B-to-B company went from securing one account to 300 accounts a year!" Now, I've got a curiosity gap. I'm like, "how did they do that?" But then, in the experience itself, what you want them to do is create - leave them with a question. You're trying to create a moment of inspiration at the end of the video, where they still need to find an answer. And instead of closing the loop, and just saying, "this is the end of the experience," what you're actually trying to do is figure out what question you want to launch into their mind so that they take the next step in your experience without a call to action. 'Cause some of the most successful content in the world and content experiences in the world actually need no call to action, because the content is so good, it invites the user to create what I call an implied call to action.
It's just like, "wow, that was so good. I wonder how they got more accounts. Like, what tools did they use?" And so, if I Google "what tools did did Company A, B, and C use to increase their ADM?" That's when I might get to a different piece of content that still by Uberflip, but it's like, "The 10 Things They Did", one of which was use Uberflip as a solution. Do you see what I'm saying?
Anna:Yeah, that, you know, I absolutely love the curiosity gap. And I think it's given some really great examples of how brands can incorporate this. Even just in small ways: like you gave the example of, you know, the Uberflip testimonial. Don't name it "Uberflip Testimonial". Give it something really smart and engaging. So, Drew, are there brands that are doing this exceptionally well today, or is there an example of a brand you encourage people to follow, to check out how they do, you know, the curiosity gap?
Drew Davis:Yeah, sure, well, lemme give you an example. I'll give you one example, and then, here's the challenge to the audience. I think your challenge as an audience should be to, next time you consume a piece of content and you find yourself wanting to take the next step, even though it's not the step that they prescribed - like if you read an article and somebody's quoted in it, and the next thing you do is Google that person's name? I want you to stop yourself, just for a second. Because that's actually a curiosity gap. And I want you to go back and read that article and figure out how they got you to the point at which you started looking for the next step yourself. Because if we learn to consume content better, you'll actually create better content. And you've just gotta start thinking like these people who do a really good job of it.
I'll give you a quick example. So there's a company called Breville. Do you guys know Breville? Anna, do you know them?
Anna:Yeah. The coffee, right?
Drew Davis:Yeah, they make a coffee - an espresso machine. They make kitchen-countertop appliances. So they make an electric wok, and a toaster oven, and all sorts of cool stuff. But they also make a juicer. Like a machine you put apples into, and then you squish it and apple juice comes out. They wanted to sell more juicers. And traditionally, your approach would be, "well, let's go up against the biggest juice manufacturers, juicer makers in the world." Like, you know, KitchenAid, and Oster, and all these competitors. And they don't have that kind of budget. They're a smaller company. And they said, "alright, let's figure this out."
So instead, they decided to create a 90-minute documentary called Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead. It's a 90-minute documentary, and when it first came out, there were 50,000 people a day were putting it into their queue and watching it. And what happened, is this whole movie is basically the story of one guy's journey. He's a 40-year-old male, which was a strategic target for them, who wasn't very healthy, kinda had a bunch of medical issues and his doctor basically said, "look, if you don't get healthy, you're gonna die at a very young age." And he went on this quest to become a healthier guy. And one of the things he does is juice. And he juices his way across America and meets a bunch of people, in fact, he meets a truck driver who has the same rare skin disorder.
Anyway, the story is great. And it keeps people paying attention for 90 minutes, okay? This is not like a 15-second thing. And hundreds of thousands of people were watching it every single day, and what they would do, after they finished watching the film, is go, "what juicer was in Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead?" Because you see juicers, but there's no branded messaging, and as a company, they knew that would be the implied call to action. If people were very excited about this, they would want to know what brand it was. So they created landing pages, and a whole content experience about what's the right juicer for you. And they didn't want - they sell very expensive juicers by the way, like $300. So, they didn't want to sell a $300 juicer to someone who only wanted to spend $20. So they would even recommend competitive juicers, because they wanted to get new customers into their pipeline so that the first thing they buy is a juicer, the next thing they buy might be their espresso machine. Does that make sense?
So, they created a full movie with a giant curiosity gap where you need closure. Like, does this guy live or die, is essentially the giant raise-your-stakes kind of concept there. And then at the end, the implied call to action is: "I wanna do what that guy did, how did he do it?" So they also set up juicing recipes from Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead. All the questions you would have after watching that film, if you were interested, they had an experience to deliver for you. So the moral of the story is: think about creating content that is so good, it holds people's attention for as long as you want, builds their emotional investment in it so that at the end, they want to take the next step, and you've done it so well that you know what next steps that content might inspire on the journey. And you've built an experience that gets them to the point which they're buying your product.
Randy Frisch:That's a great example, Drew. And you know, I feel like I've learned so much on the curiosity gap, and I'm gonna try and put two in to close this up. So my first attempt at a curiosity gap is that you know, you dropped way more amazing examples and framework at our event, ConEx, which we've talked about in the keynote. So if people want, we have put the URL in this podcast right up, that people can go and click and download your full experience and watch that talk. So that's curiosity gap number one. But curiosity gap number two, I think is even more on-your-edge, you can't wait, is if you stick around after this short break, we're actually gonna ask Drew and Anna if they were a Muppet: because we always go personal. If they were a Muppet, what Muppet would they be? And I'm almost like, so you have to tune into next week to learn that, but you know, we'll do it after this break. Curiosity gap that. Okay, here we go. We'll be right back.
Alright Drew. And Anna, Anna, you gotta be ready for this, okay? I've been thinking about it since we started talking about Muppets. So, I am ready. I am ready. But, Drew, we'll start with you. We wanna know, if you were a Muppet, what Muppet would you be?
Drew Davis:Okay, so I would be Gonzo. Because I've actually always had a deep affection for Gonzo. 'Cause he's a little weird. His ideas are a little out there, but he's always got a reason for doing what he wants to do, and his intentions are always good. So, I like a good chicken joke. I'm definitely Gonzo. Or maybe Super Grover! Now I'm wavering.
Randy Frisch:I was actually on the fence, to be very honest, I was actually tempted to go the Fozzie route, right? Like sometimes, I talk a little bit too much, and I go into too much detail, and I own that about myself, but really, I'm a caring guy. Right? Fozzie's a caring guy at the end of the day, yeah, so I'll take Fozzie now.
Drew Davis:Okay, well, I won't do Grover until I hear what Anna's character is.
Anna:Okay, so I thought we were making up Muppets.
Drew Davis:Oh! That's even better, man, you are creative. That's a surefire sign of a creative line.
Anna:So, if I were to pick an existing Muppet, it would definitely be Rizzo.
Drew Davis:Oh, yay!
Anna:I love Rizzo. His personality, his sense of humor, I feel like I make those jokes all the time, so I'm going with Rizzo.
Randy Frisch:Isn't it interesting that no one chooses Kermit? I feel like Kermit's a bit of a dick. (laughs) A little too cocky, and high on himself.
Drew Davis:Yeah. I mean, no one wants to be that uptight, like always worried about everything?
Randy Frisch:Kermit's just not...I don't know if Kermit's that lovable.
Anna:Okay, real quick though. You know that part where Kermit is sort of brainwashed into corporate culture, and they're sitting around the table going, "mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm." How many meetings have you actually been in like that? That part is too real, so that makes me like Kermit, just a little bit more.
Drew Davis:Oh, yeah, tons, that are just like that. That's awesome. Alright, I'll do my Grover imitation real quick, you ready? Here we go. Near...far...near...far. That's it. That's it. That's the whole imitation.
Randy Frisch:Drew, this has been so much fun. Just to clear it up, we have called him Drew a million times, but if you're looking for his books on Amazon, check out Andrew Davis. That's the way you're gonna find it, and you'll find Brandscaping there, is that the book that people should be looking for now?
Drew Davis:That's it. Brandscaping or Town, Inc. are the two books that everybody loves, so either one of those.
Randy Frisch:Amazing. Amazing. Drew, thank you so much. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please check out all our other podcasts. They're on Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher. If you can, leave us feedback on what we can do to make this better. This has been the Content Experience Podcast, the ConEx Podcast, on behalf of Anna, I'm Randy, thanks for tuning in.
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