How to Create Your Own Best Practices

How to Create Your Own Best Practices

Jay Acunzo, Founder of Unthinkable Media and author of Break the Wheel, joins the Content Experience Show to discuss best practices and when to buck trends.

In This Episode:

Jay Acunzo


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Full Episode Details

Best Practices for You

If you spend a few minutes looking around any business blog or magazine, chances are that you’ll come across the term “best practices,” most likely in the form of a headline like “Best Practices for . . .”

Whether you’re a newer startup or a well-established brand, it’s nice to have someone lay out a formula for how they found success. The pitfall here lies in the lack of context. It can be helpful to read their roadmap, but ultimately, they are not you! When you adopt someone else’s best practices as your own, you may not see the same results because the context is not the same.

This is the whole point of Jay Acunzo’s new book, Break the Wheel. You shouldn’t be going against the grain for rebellion’s sake, but at the same time, you cannot find success just by following in someone else’s footsteps. Learning another business’s best practices is a great place to start, but the only way to find true success is to dig deep and forge your own path.

In This Episode

  • Why other brands’ “best practices” are not always the way to go.
  • How to choose what’s best for your business rather than just following the trend.
  • Why “breaking the wheel” is not about simply bucking the trend.
  • Why best practices should be viewed as more of a starting point than a rule.

Quotes From This Episode

If all you know is the best practice or the general advice, you lack their specific context. Click To Tweet

“There’s some kind of detail in your environment, whether it’s you and your team, your customers, or your resources, that you need to incorporate into your decisions.” — @jayacunzo

What best practices really are is just a fine place to start. Click To Tweet


Content Experience Lightning Round

If you could interview anyone around the world on a regular basis, what would the topic be?

Jay is a big sports fan and would love to do interviews that tell human interest stories about athletes.

See you next week!

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Episode Transcript

Anna: Hey everybody, thank you so much for joining the Content Experience Show podcast. I am here with the always amazing Randy Frish from Uberflip and I am Anna Harrock from Convince and Convert. Now today we have an awesome show for you. We also have Jay [Acunzo 00:00:13]. Now many of you have seen him probably speak publicly at Content Marketing World, various events over the years, also host of Unthinkable podcast and the great thing is he actually has a new book coming out called Break the Wheel, Question Best Practices, Hone Your Intuition, and Do Your Best Work and he got to come by and talk to us a little bit about it and what you can all expect. Anna: Randy, we had I think a great conversation and just a lot of frustration around best practices and the "right way to do things" and I don't know, I'm a big fan of Jay's approach in Breaking the Wheel and I know you are too, but you guys do that all the time. I feel like Uberflip breaks the wheel with content all the time. Randy: Yeah, I mean first off thank you. You always also do that, the always amazing and then you introduce yourself ... Like you're always amazing too so you have to clarify that. It's very humbling. Anna: I speak the truth. I only speak the truth. Randy: Why thank you. I thank you. Yeah absolutely. I'm definitely the shit disturber on my team. I mean ... I fortunately have a team that is also very good at deciding which of my break the wheel ideas if you will we are going to do which times we're going to balance with a process and keep going down that road, but I think Jay's point is more so around finding that blend of best practices and ways that work for you and that's what I like. This wasn't, as he said at one point in this podcast, it's not about being a rebel, right? Anna: Right. Randy: It's not about going against the tracks every moment. It's about adapting these best practices and that's the part is as we get into the second half of this podcast and I encourage people to make it past our sponsor breaks and keep going because we start to relate this to content and the challenge I threw to Jay is does that mean that we shouldn't do all of our best practice articles or our e-books with how to do it and his point was ... Well I'll let people listen to the point. Why don't we keep them on the edge of their seat and have them listen through. I know I'm such an ass hole. Anna: That is so mean. Randy: I know. It's very America's Got Talent or American Idol of me. Let's actually go right into the show here and we will see what Jay said about what to do with your content. Anna: Hey Jay, thank you so much for joining us. It's so great to have you here. Jay: Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I love the new branding and tilt of the pod by the way. Anna: Thanks. Yeah I know. I mean massive credit goes to Randy because obviously we just got done with ... Well I should say they, I just was there, but the [CONEX 00:03:02], Content Experience Conference. Jay: I cannot escape how many people are praising that event so kudos to you guys. Randy: That's awesome. Anna: It was awesome. Randy: We're a movement now right? We've got the podcast. We've got the events. We've got content. We've got the trifecta. Anna: Yeah. It was awesome. I loved it. The other thing that was great about it though is the thing I think was the biggest theme there was about fresh ideas and doing things differently which is kind of amazing because Jay you're here to talk about your book Break the Wheel and it's all about getting out of the "best practices" and doing things that are best for us not just what everybody says we should be doing. I'm really excited. I can't wait to actually get my hands on the book and read it. Jay: Thank you so much. I've been blown away by the reception so far. So far so good. First book but we'll write again five stars. Anna: Nice. That's good because a lot of people don't say that about writing a book so that's actually pretty amazing you came out unscathed and ready to write another one right away. Jay: Let's say stronger not unscathed. Anna: Nice. So how did you come up with Break the Wheel because I love that and I actually use that term myself as well when I do talk about content marketing and digital marketing, but I love it. How did you come to Break the Wheel? Jay: So it was really born out of one desire and two observations. Like me just ask you guys this. Will you agree with this statement yes or no? Finding best practices isn't the goal, finding the best approach for you is. Anna: 100% agree. Jay: Right. Randy: I agree. I don't know if I was taught that though. Like I personally agree, I feel like it was all like adopt these best practices, here's the four P's of marketing, do a SWAT analysis. Jay: I almost just like threw my microphone against the wall and screamed yes. Like that's exactly right. It's like ... Because what we're told is here's expertise, here's precedent, here a trend, here's an expert, here's a right answer. Even back in school you're taught there's a right and a wrong answer and so we get out into the working world and we still approach complex and creative challenges, strategic challenges or tactile, like there's a right answer and you know whether it's in the start up world in my own career where I was taught that there is no one right way to build a company. Randy, you know that first hand with Uberflip. Or whether it's all these articles I'm reading about the exact right length of a podcast or an article, it's like here's all the reasons, I can't give you one right answer. Dude totally that hit me so hard. That hit me where I live. Randy: You say you didn't like multiple choice tests in school? Like that was a new thing? Jay: Remember if you had three C's or three of the same letter answers in a row or more it was like terrifying. Randy: I actually had this strategy. It didn't work, but I'll tell you what my strategy was. It was [BC Bubda 00:05:47]. That was like B-C-B-A-Bubda. If you went with BC Bubda you always pass. You didn't necessarily do great, but you always passed. Jay: All right I am not putting my stamp of endorsement. I don't know if that's true or not, but the reason I bring up that statement, finding the best practices isn't the goal, finding the best approach for you is. It's exactly to what Randy just said. We were never taught that, number one. We were never taught how to do that. So not only were we not told it or shown it, but we weren't shown how to come up with the right answer in your unique situation and worst of all in this Internet era, there's more "right" answers out there than ever before and so we go searching for best practices, we got searching for conventional wisdom we go searching for latest trends, and maybe even like a God metric, a God tool, a God channel, and it just doesn't exist and so we see all this commodity crap spinning out into our world and the content marketing industry. We see all that baseline bull shittery quite frankly. Jay: So I wanted to explore well how do you make the best possible decision for you regardless of the best practice because that's what matters. And there were two observations that really helped me land there. One was market based and one was based on my podcast where I told over 100 stories and tried to find a thru line through them, so the market-based was like we all want to do our best work and yet there is still so much commodity content in our terms, spinning out into the industry and onto the Internet, so much trend hopping, so much clinging to conventional wisdom. So I'm like okay why? Everybody would agree they want to do what works best for them, why are we doing so much copycat or mundane or average stuff? So that was sort of the market question or observation. Somebody told me that I'm a marketer who's bothered by suck, so that was the first trend that led me there. Jay: The show based one, the podcast-based one, I host this podcast called Unthinkable and the bent is it's examples of work that seems crazy until you hear their side of the story and so I was like what ties together ... I did 100 and I'm like what ties together all these stories? Is there a theme? Is there potentially a book or an exploration to go on deeper on the show? And what I realized is yeah it's all crazy, but when you hear their story it's logical so what's the difference? Context. If all you know is the best practice or the general advice, you lack their specific context. So this innovator, this creator, this individual, this entrepreneur, they were making a decision based on a detail in their own environment to do the thing that works best for them regardless of the trend or best practice. So it's like okay those two things in mind, how the hell do we do that? That's what I wanted to explore. Randy: That's really interesting. Anna: Yeah. No, and this is super fascinating too because one of the things, and Jay I'm sure you've encountered this as well, but when you do kind of tell people that that is the right approach to take, like yeah okay best practices, know them, love them, like take them into account, but really find the best practice for you. People really get frustrated with that answer. Especially, I've been consulting with clients for 12 years now and every time they're like, "Well what content should we publish." I'm like, "Well let's sit down and do a strategy and figure out what's the best for you." People don't like that answer. Do you find ... How do you find that we can crack through that psychological barrier of resisting that answer or how can we help people get to that answer more easily? Jay: Yeah, there's two types of frustration I'm encountering that I encountered in writing the book and now I'm encountering again and it's even more passionate now that I have the book. The first type is the person who says, "Just give me the answer and let me get out of here." So I am not trying to serve that person at all. If you're content doing commodity work, my work is not for you, this book is not for you. However, if you're like, "I really do want to do the best work possible, I find meaning in the work as does my team, as do my customers," there's still some frustration, to your point, people you serve Anna, they still want to do good work and they're like, "Oh man that's so tiring." So the change that I'm asking people to make is basically to stop acting like an expert and start acting like an investigator and we can make it just as practical as being an expert. Jay: So an expert cares about absolutes. You care about what works on average or in general, generally speaking, and that might be fine. It might be the case that someone's expert advice to you, here's exactly what you should create, for example, on that channel works in your situation, but I think what you're doing in reality is you're relying on things that are close enough. So like they're kind of like me and I'm going to copy them, but they're not actually you. There's some kind of detail in your environment, whether it's you and your team, your customers, or your resources, some details matters that you need to incorporate into your decisions. So I like to say you have contextualize an idea or a best practice. You can't just glum onto it. Randy: I want to jump in there. I want to help paint for people listening how to apply this on a day to day and sometimes I think that's easiest when we think of real life examples. You've had an awesome career. I mean you're out there educating and speaking to people now, but you and I think first met back when you were head of content at Hubspot. Is there any stories, whether it was at Hubspot or some of the other stops you've had at some of the venture companies that you were involved with, where you sit screw this best practice, this is what works for me? Jay: So for me personally or someone I've found? Randy: Either or. Jay: Yeah, I mean the person I admire arguably the most, I mean I definitely have spent the most time trying to understand how this happened and how this work, is a guy named Mike Brown who founded a company called Death Wish Coffee. They profess to be the strongest coffee in the world, the world's strongest coffee actually and actually this year they sent their coffee to the space station so I think now they're galaxy's strongest coffee. So Mike did two things that I think if you know coffee and know the best practice of that industry, but the product and the marketing, you would look at him and be like that's insane. So the first is he used this bean called Robusta, which is actually pretty frowned upon by a lot of these people in coffee because Robusta's bitter, Robusta's almost too potent. Arabica is the bean you want to use. It's floral and flavorful so most people say you're crazy to use Robusta beans. He did. I can explain why in a second. Jay: The other thing he did was he has this brand that looks more like an energy drink. It's like really aggressive. It's not artisanal coffee. It's like black and read and a skull and crossbones, Death Wish Coffee, and the way he came at these decisions was instead of try and look at all the advice out there, of which there's a lot both in marketing and in coffee for him, he started talking to his customers and he realized that almost all of them in upstate New York where he lives, they wanted to work their asses off. They wanted to work insanely hard. They wanted to work themselves to death and they were truck drivers and construction workers, and entrepreneur. And then if you pair that with a little market knowledge, so around the same time he started this company, most upstate New York cities were losing population due to jobs going to cities, except for two locations, Albany and Saratoga, where Mike lives. Jay: So Saratoga had an influx of people coming in to work really hard and so you consider not the best practice, the precedent, or the trend, you consider exactly where he lived, his environment, his customers, and he said, "You know what, all these people they reach for coffee like it's Red Bull, like it's 5 Hour. The flavor doesn't matter. The potency matters. I'm going to use that bean because they don't care about the artisanal experience and I'm going to brand myself and compete not with Starbucks and Dunkin, I'm going to compete with Red Bull and 5 Hour." Like American runs on Dunkin, it doesn't die on it. So he created Death Wish Coffee. So that's an example of like he felt overwhelmed at first, but then slowly by slowly just by focusing more on his customers and investigating his actual environment, his context, he actually found the information he needed to make good decisions even though the best practice would probably have steered him away from those decisions. Anna: That's awesome. So he literally bucked, like you said, bucked every best practice, every trend that was happening within coffee and he found this niche that worked for him and it's massively successful. I've actually seen, I remember you talking about this before last year at Content Marketing World and ever since then I've seen it everywhere. Like it literally is I'm like oh and every time I think about it, I'm like they did something so crazy different and it worked and that's what I think about them every time. Jay: It's not that he's a rebel. It's not that he bucked the trend to buck the trend. It's that he served his customers, found insights from his customers instead of experts, and that led him to do something that looked like he bucked the trend. So I want to be very clear on that. This book is not about being a rebel. It's about doing whatever works for you and that might be a percent of the convention, it might be 100%, but most times it's almost none of the conventions. So for Mike he wasn't a rebel, he was being strategic and logical. It's just that he was focused more on investigating his context than being an expert who just kind of knows the absolutes. Anna: Nice. No good clarification. Jay I know you have a ton more stories to tell about people who are doing the exact same thing that Death Wish Coffee did and they are seeing success so before we get into others though we're going to take a super quick break to hear from our sponsors, but when we come back we're going to hear more about all of the amazing stories you have in the book along with I'm sure some more fabulous tips and tricks about how people can break the wheel. So everybody stick around. We will be right back. Jay: Hi friends, this is Jay Bear from Convince and Convert reminding you that this show, the Content Experience Show Podcast is brought to you by Uberflip, the number one content experience platform. Do you ever wonder how context experience affects your marketing results? While you can find out in the first ever content experience report where Uberflip uncovers eight data science-backed insights to boost your content engagement and your conversations. It's a killer report and you do not want to miss it. Get your free copy right now at That's and the show is also brought to you by our team at Convince and Convert Consulting. If you've got a terrific content marketing program, but you want to take it to the very next level, we can help. Convince and Convert works with the world's most iconic brands to increase the effectiveness of their content marketing, social media marketing, digital marketing, and word of mouth marketing. Find us at Randy: Today's podcast is brought to you by CoSchedule. I'm a big fan of the team over at CoSchedule because they are making it possible for us as marketers to live with an all in one marketing calendar. It combines project management, email marketing, social promotion, all in one place which we know is so tricky when our team is not not aligned, so to get complete visibility over your entire marketing schedule, keep your sanity, and get more done, check out CoSchedule. You can go to to get your free marketing strategy template plus the low down on how CoSchedule is helping thousands of marketers like you get their sanity back. That's at Anna: Growth in your business is tough. Ads are expensive and let's face it, social medial is hard. The best way to grow is to have your customers do it for you via word of mouth, but you have to give people a consistent and memorable story to tell. That story is your talk trigger and Jay and Daniel's new book shows you exactly how to do it. It's the complete guide to creating customers with word of mouth and it's available now wherever you get books. It's easy to find because it's the one with the alpacas on the cover and it is Uberflip pink. Visit to get it today. Randy: Hey Jay, this has been an awesome conversation already. I'm ready to buy the book, but what I want to do is I want to actually bring this into the world we're all in because right now I'm still stuck in my mind around my son convincing me that his baseball stance is better than what I'm trying to teach him. He's like, "This works for me." He shows me all these fancy approaches that baseball players have today. They've all adapted their stane so I think that works to your idea of breaking the wheel, but when it comes to content, right, because that's what this podcast is all about, what is your advice when half of the articles I read start with six best practices for fill in the blank. I mean all of our content we create is about a best practice so does this change the content game? Do we have to just start telling people to trust their gut? Jay: I don't think you stop trying to publish articles that share best practices with others. I think that's what you're asking, right? It's like we share best practices with our audiences so should we stop? No because I think what we just need to do is tweak what we believe best practices are. We believe there are answers. We believe there are blueprints. We believe that we have the answers in some absolute sense and can hand it to someone else and they'll be successful. What best practices really are is just a fine place to start. That's it. They are possibilities, not answers, and so what if I use Uberflip as an easy example, Randy. What if in addition to publishing, here are some tactics that we recommend you use to create a great content experience because oh by the way we have a product that helps you do that, in addition to the list of tips and tricks, you also helped people understand how to identify what exactly from that list would work for them. Jay: So rather than saying here's our ten step plan, adopt it wholesale, here's our 10 step plan and by the way we published a piece last week that gave you some ideas for how to actually like scrutinize best practices, how to actually mold best practices to your work. This is about tailored thinking more than anything else. Randy: I love that. I think that's a great way to look at it and it's interesting. One of the things that's with any content asset that's always trouble me that it hasn't been solved, is good commenting. There's just no good commenting tools out there in the market. The best one when you think about it is LinkedIn. People will publish something on LinkedIn and then we say to everyone, "Please share your thoughts. What do you think of this asset that we just published? Is this the way you're doing it?" And we get great back and forth on LinkedIn which I think is everyone doing exactly what you're saying, Jay, is sharing this is my take on that. Jay: First of all we need to get some beers and not just record digitally because everything you're saying, I'm like same wavelength and I want to go deeper in more time than we have here, but what I will say is imagine this scenario. Imagine you post something, let's use LinkedIn, you post something to LinkedIn. You're like here's what worked for me or here's what I believe works in general even though you might not acknowledge that it's in general. You're like here's what works, then you get this thread of people saying, "Well this worked for me and it's a little bit different. This worked for me, it's the opposite. This worked for me, but it's only 5% of what you said." You get more and more possibilities poor out of the woodwork because again that's what all these tips, tricks, best practices, how to's are, possibilities. Jay: What if you, to go back to your work, have this like filter. Almost like a mental filter, but maybe it was physical. You could like hold it up against all that stuff and press it all through that filter and out the other side some stuff would come and some stuff would stick, right? And the stuff that got through you're like, "Huh, so this is what would work for me." Like that is ultimately what I want people to be able to do after reading this book, is they're so self-aware and situationally aware that regardless of what's being shared by the smartest or the brand new person on the block, they're able to say how much that applies to them or not at all. Right? Jay: I mean that would be amazing if we could do that. So at the core that's what this book is trying to do for the world. It's like I don't want to propose my methodology, actually the methodology of this book is a set of questions you can ask, but if you're able to answer them, you build yourself what I call the instant clarity generator, which is a playful term for really intuition to be able to say this works for me, even though there's 25 experts that I feel are smarter than me saying I should do it the opposite way. Anna: I was just going to say I love the fact that you build trusting our intuition into the book because I think so often when it comes to content we have this tendency to think about it, or even just any digital marketing effort, we have this tendency to think of, "Okay if I do A and then B and then C I'll get D." And it's like what people don't take into account is that we're dealing with humans and humans aren't formulated like that. I just love that you go into intuition because there's so many times where decisions can't be qualified with a number, but intuition is absolutely just as valuable. Jay: I believe so, but I also believe that you fall in an extreme when I say that word, intuition. It's like, "Come on Jay I think you were going to give us some ideas for our content marketing." Well you fall on one extreme and say, "Hell yeah intuition baby" and you pound your chest or on the other extreme you're like nope, like come on that's BS, that's like the mythical muse. So I acknowledge that in the book and then I try to get to the root of what intuition is supposed to be and a lot of thinkers I try to incorporate are not people that you think of as loving fluffy ideas. I mean Einstein technologist, John Nasbit, Malcomb Gladwell, even today or yesterday I saw a post by Jeff Basos, or involving Jeff Bezos, where he talked about making decisions based on heart, taste, and intuition. So there are very successful people who laud the power of intuition. Jay: If you just boil it down, like distill it to his basic most dense delicious marinara sauce, says the Italian, intuition comes from the Latin root intueri which means to consider or intuit from the late middle English which means to contemplate. So I think all intuition is is your ability to consider or contemplate the world. So how do you hone your intiution to then make better decisions with more clarity for you. You ask a lot of questions of your environment. You become an investigator and again I propose some in the book, but I also give people a framework for how to invent their own questions. So if you just constantly try to do that, like ask good questions and know what you're all about in your situation, that is you developing your intuition and the more you do that, we see very successful people do this quickly, the more it becomes just how you operate. It feels instant. Anna: So less like tarot card consulting intuition, more Sherlocky intuition. Jay: Yeah, so to Randy's point, there's all these best practices that we are sharing as content marketers, what you should want your audience to do is to smash that on the ground and look at all the people and pick them apart and be like thank you this is amazing. Like inside this giant gift you gave me, here's one golden nugget that works for me. What you shouldn't want or expect if you're being realistic is that they follow everything to a T and succeed because you don't know exactly what they're going through in their situation. Randy: So I've got one last question for you before we start to wrap up, which is I think a lot of people are listening to this and they're probably motivated and I'm sure if they read the whole book they'll really see the whole piece, but one of the challenges we often have when we want to just change our whole approach is the barriers to do so. The things telling us, "No we can't do that" and they could be internal, but if we can get over that, what are some of the external ones that we have to deal with? Like one of them that's coming to my mind is like that boss who's like you're doing it my way, this is the process, this is how I do it, this is how we do it in our company and you're going to buy in, so how do you advise people to overcome some of these internal or external barriers? Jay: Yeah. I uncovered three different psychological barriers, pike syndrome, cultural fluency, and something called the foraging choice which is actually something I learned about like literally after publishing the book so now I'm actually using this to help people because the study just came out of NYU a couple weeks ago. One of the things that I try to be very clear on is that I love creativity. I love intuition. I accept all the stuff at face value, but we have to make all this stuff practical. It has to be something where we can say with confidence to our boss, "Hey this is what you believe, this is what you want, here is all of my logical thinking, and then finally at the end here's my idea." Like I think we try to push through our bosses or clients and other friction around us backwards in that we give them our answers. We give them our ideas. We try to, to what Anna said earlier, buck the trend. Jay: And I'm trying to be very clear, that is not what I'm encouraging people to do unless that is the byproduct, the outcome, of what seems very strategic and logical. So in addition to proposing the questions you can ask, I also try to propose how to actually position that to another boss and actually if people listening want just that framework, Google my name and green smoothie problem. Green smoothie problem. That is a framework for being more persuasive and convincing when you're trying to get that boss not to rely on the same old same old or that client not to just copy a competitor and blend in. Anna: Nice. So basically going back to full circle, don't buck the trend to buck the trend, but if it happens to go that way don't freak out because it's not necessarily "best practices." Jay: Yeah, if your customer is telling you they love long form content and everybody out there in the content marketing world is like "snackable content" like you should create long form content. Right? And so what if we all that kind of clarity and confidence to proceed if it's against the trend. In that example it's because your customers are telling you something or giving you signal, but it could be your boss, it could be you, it could be anybody in your situation because really your context is just you, your customers, and your resources. If you became an expert in that first, all the other best practices out there serve you and you can be proactive in your work, again pressing it through a sort of filter to make better decisions for you. Anna: Nice. Well I, Jay, honestly cannot think of any better way to wrap up our entire conversation today in such a beautiful succinct sentence. You managed to accomplish that of course. However, just so people know where they can get your book because you've already given so many great tips and trips and pieces of advice. Where can everybody get it and actually digest all of this and become their own investigator through the book? Jay: Yeah, thank you, I appreciate that. So You can get some quotes that are inside, some review from actual readers, not experts, to stay true to the theme here. I actually published some playlists I used, listening to music to publish the book so you can check out my playlist, but you can buy the book there. So It's available October 16th, but I'm doing a presale for signed copies in the U.S. only until October 16th. Anna: Nice. All right everybody, so run out, grab the book, preorder it, grab it when you can. Jay thank you so much. We are going to go ahead and have you stick around for a little bit longer because we've gotten to know the professional side of you. We've gotten to know about Break the Wheel a little bit more, but we want to take just a couple minutes and get to know the personal side of Jay so everybody stick around and we're going to have some personal questions for Jay right after this. Randy: All right Jay, we're back and we talked a lot about the book which I think is just something you're passionate about, but I always like to know people's passions and we tried this question on someone recently who runs a podcast and I know you run a podcast in Unthinkable, but your podcast ties back to work, right? You're trying to make a living off it. You're passionate about it I know, but if you had an opportunity to start a podcast about just like a hobby or a side passion. I know you were in the broadcasting space with ESPN at one point. Like I don't know if you're a sports guy or where your mind goes, but if you could interview anyone around the world on a regular basis, what would the topic be? Jay: Oh man that's so hard because I feel so fortunate to be ... I chose the path of mine, right, so I love what I'm doing now. I would go back to that route I had in sports journalism. I would try to ... And with a specific bent that made me like sports journalism, which was the human interest stories. So I would want to talk to athletes, not just the most famous or most successful, but the ones that have these either clever approaches or quirks as people or hardships that they overcame. I'd want to tell really interesting human interest stories about athletes. Randy: So you're talking about like when I watched like America Ninja Warrior and it's like just before they go and do their thing and there's this heartwarming story. Jay: Oh the montage, yeah. Randy: Oh I love those. Jay: Oh my gosh yes. So that's why ... When I wanted to be a sports journalist I'm like I want to do that. Like I want to do the cheesy really saccharine stories and there's more, there's funny ones, but East 60 on ESPN is a show that does this and I love that show and it's like yeah I want to docu-style things like I'm doing now, but I would replace the content with athletes because I think there's so many good stories there. Randy: That's awesome. Yeah, Jay, I think all the content you create whether it's back when I knew you at HubSpot, the stuff you're doing now, the book, it's all value added. It's stuff that people will enjoy so again people can grab that book. We'll make sure that the link is in the writeup for this for you to click on for everyone listening in and if you've enjoyed this podcast please continue to tune in. Find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Plays, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, download past episodes, and please let us know when you can what you've enjoyed. Until next, thanks for tuning in. I'm Randy Frisch with Anna Harrack by my side and Jay Acunzo joining us. Thank you so much to everyone.  
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