How to Turn Emotions Into Metrics

How to Turn Emotions Into Metrics

Adam Rossow and Jonathan Futa, Threadline Digital’s Co-Founders, join the Content Experience Show to discuss measuring emotional responses in your audience.

In This Episode:

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Full Episode Details

Metrics With Meaning

To say that data is important in marketing would be an obvious understatement. Analytics have taken the spotlight in recent years, with social platforms offering more and more insights and ways to track trends and engagement.

According to Adam Rossow and Jonathan Futa at Threadline Digital, however, this isn’t the data that your business should be concerned with. Of course, you can measure likes, shares, comments, etc. and make informed decisions on how to create content to get more of the same. But is that really what you want?

If you are putting the money and effort into creating great content, you’re likely setting higher goals than simply “getting more likes.” If you’re truly trying to connect with your audience, there’s an emotional factor that goes far deeper than behavioral metrics.

According to the folks at Threadline Digital, you have to engage with the people who are engaging with your content, through polls or interviews, and see how your content is actually making them feel. Not only that, but (to take a tip from every other genre of scientific measurement) it is imperative that you also engage with a control group. Only then can you see the true effect your content has on your audience.

In This Episode

  • How to find meaningful metrics.
  • How to set effective goals for your top-of-funnel content.
  • How to move past vanity metrics.
  • How to measure the feeling your content causes rather than behavior.
  • Why “likes” do not equal engagement.

Quotes From This Episode

You have to engage the individuals that engage with your content. Click To Tweet

“You need to align your goal with your measurement, ask the question about exactly what you’re trying to achieve, and not infer from a click what that might mean.” — Jonathan Futa

“You can’t rely on passive behavioral metrics because that’s all about the actions they took, not their attitudes or their feelings.” — @adamrossow


Content Experience Lightning Round

Adam, as both a fan of The Grateful Dead and classic hip hop, what are some good entry points into both?

Adam suggests starting with either “Estimated Prophet” or “Scarlet Begonias” for The Grateful Dead, while B.I.G.’s first album and A Tribe Called Quest are great entries into hip hop.

Jonathan, what are you watching on Netflix right now?

Jonathan has been a huge fan of Netflix since the mail order days! He’s currently in a “transition period” between shows, but he may end up going back and re-watching some of his favorite sitcoms like Parks & Recreation or The Office.

See you next week!

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Episode Transcript

Randy:Welcome to Conex: The Content Experience show. I'm Randy Frisch and I've got Anna Hrach joining me for Convince to Convert. Today was kind of fun. Today was kind of fun. This is to give you a little heads up of what's coming. Anna and I had a fun conversation with two gentlemen, Adam Rossow, and Jonathan Futa. They're at a company called Threadline Digital, which touches on an area we don't go into a lot of. We talk sometimes, Anna, about the importance of understanding what content's working, but I think we get really into the data and how we're mapping that to our automation systems. But what these gentlemen have been doing is taking more the lens of, "How is this content creating an emotional bond with your audience?" And I don't know. I don't know I we actually do that enough. We say we want to do it, but do we do it enough?
Anna:Yeah. It's really cool, some of the things that we get to talk about today. And I agree. I don't think we are doing that enough. I think ... Especially coming from my background in agencies, I have seen measurement done a million and one different ways. And the way that they talk about it is really unique with just experiences and emotional measurement. It's a totally different approach, but still very useful and usable to pretty much any marketer out there.
Randy:Absolutely. You go back to where we're starting there with this idea that when we create a piece of content, we all sit around and we strategize. Like, "Who are we trying to connect with? What do we want them to feel?" But then when we go to measure, all we look at is often, as they called it, or we all called it, "Vanity metrics." It's like, "Did we have enough likes? Did we have enough click-throughs?" But did we actually in swaying the opinion of that audience? What they've been doing at Threadline Digital is taking a very survey-based approach to actually engage with the people who have taken in some of that content and understanding what the outcomes have been. It's something that I wonder how many marketers have had the time to dig into.
Anna:Yeah, it's a really good point. As we talked about earlier, and actually, later in the episode, we ... Aside of the fact that in the content marketing institute, every single year, measuring content effectiveness and ROI is a top challenge for marketers. And it's something that we all deal with, and it's something that we all struggle with. And you're right, Randy. We pour all of this time and energy into creative briefs that are beautiful and talk about what content should achieve, but how often do we actually go out and measure what we set out to achieve exactly the way we wanted to achieve it? It's probably most likely never.
Randy:Yeah, absolutely. It's rare that we get to see ... We didn't touch on this, but sometimes maybe we'll see it in the comments that come from a post, if we have commentary on our blog posts or [inaudible 00:02:45] that we put out. Sometimes maybe on LinkedIn, or you and I when we're out at events, we may run into people who say, "Oh, I love the content you do. It really hits me." But I would bet that these are rare opportunities, and how many of those actually get back to our team? So, without ruining the podcast, because these guys are truly experts, why don't we roll with it? And I believe you intro'd them, so we'll jump right to this past week's episode.
Anna:Hey Adam and Jonathan. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's so great to have you here.
Adam:Great to be here.
Jonathan:Thank you.
Anna:Yeah. We got to know each other a little bit before we started recording, but just so everybody else out there can get to know you a little bit, can you tell us a little bit about yourselves in Threadline Digital?
Adam:Yeah, sure. I'll go first. I'll start at the beginning. I started off ... And this is Adam ... In integrated public relations in marketing in New York working for a couple of different agencies. And when moving out to Denver ... I think it was around 2014 ... To help found an online market research company called iModerate, and was with them for 14 years doing a variety of things, but doing a lot of marketing, and communications, and business development. Met Jonathan along the way, and we started Threadline Digital about 18 months ago.
Jonathan:Yeah, that sounds about right. At the time ... This is Jonathan. I was working at a strategic consultancy, the Benenson Strategy Group, kind of nextdoor to Adam, working on corporate and political opinion research doing high level communications studies. Trying to hone in on messaging, things like that. Working mainly in methodology and product development. And we hit on a pretty interesting methodology, decided that made sense to be its own offering, that it could really standalone. And yeah, about 18 months ago, we took it off and then started Threadline Digital.
Anna:Nice. I love that you focus on content measurement. How did you even come to this specialty? Because I love it. I'm a huge fan of it. But curious how you came to this place of really providing marketers with the metrics that matter.
Jonathan:It's one of those funny things that kind of was a mistake at first. We were talking about the best use for this type of methodology; this product offering. We had initially been looking at really digital advertising, and the larger digital advertising market, and how we could help test the effectiveness of display ad campaigns. And as you might know, that's a bit more of a crowded marketplace. There's some pretty large market research firms out there that do those kind of studies. And we were looking at just the broader digital marketing industry right now, and found ... We saw content marketing was growing, and growing, and growing, and that also really aligned with the types of attributes and goals that we can really measure quite well. Those atmospheric top-of-the-funnel type of campaigns. Content marketing is really well suited for that, and we saw that there's just not a lot out there that can help marketers measure those objectives. And that's kind of how we hit on it. We were, I think, sitting on the coach one day and decided, "Hey, this makes sense. No one else is really focusing on this."
Adam:Yeah. And just to piggyback on that ... In my former life at iModerate, we did a lot of top-of-the-funnel content marketing geared around thought leadership, and gaining some brand awareness, and kind of shifting perceptions of what we do in the industry and who we are. And, I, myself, was frustrated by the inability to really understand the impact that that was having on the iModerate brand and trying to figure out all these different attribution models using marketing automation systems, and CRMs, and sales force, but still found a ton of holes. So, it really resonated with me as well as we went down the line.
Randy:What I find cool is that you're coming to this as a previous CMO. Right? I love that. And that you come with that lens, as you call it, or a multi-touch attribution, and trying to understand all of this. So, maybe you can help us understand the approach you're taking, because I think a lot of marketing leaders right now are struggling with, "How big of a data set should we be looking at when we try and assess whether something's working or not?" Right? Like, the number of times that someone on my team will say, "This is trending the right way, but we only have one day of data. I really want two weeks of data to really understand this." How do you decide, these days in the AI world, when it's enough data?
Jonathan:Yeah. I think we do have enough data. Truth be told, I think sometimes it's data overload just kind of sitting in the CMO's seat. Again, with big data, all the behavioral data, you've got everything coming in; all those different streams. I think the key is, what's the right data? And what's the data that really aligns with the goals. That's really the problem that we saw and that I faced as the marketing leader at iModerate. When we were doing these brand awareness campaigns through content and trying to get some thought leadership pieces out there and doing different research reports, we were still really looking at clicks, and page views, time on site, different engagement metrics, when really the goals, again, were to generate awareness, to build our reputation as thought leaders.
And it was really challenging—and still is, frankly—to say, "We got 1,000 people coming to this specific white paper or this piece of content, and they spent an average of 3 minutes and 30 seconds on our website. How am I supposed to tie that altogether and say that that had a positive impact on the brand?" And that's what CMOs are really struggling with today. It's not the lack of data; it's them not having the right data and the right insight at the top of a funnel. And that's what we're really trying to help them solve.
Anna:I love this to death, honestly. It is really funny, though, because especially if you look at every single year when content marketing institute puts out that annual report, whether it's B2B, B2C, or any of the vertical ones they've done before ... Content measurement, content effectiveness, and drawing ROI from it is consistently sighted as marketer's top challenges. And I think you guys ... Really, I love what you just said about ... There's so many arbitrary metrics that people are looking to. And really tying it back to, "What do we actually want to accomplish and what do we actually want to achieve?" How does somebody go about even ... Maybe they are sort of measuring, "Okay. We got so many clicks or we got the time on site." How do you actually get them to take a step back and really measure what is effective, or even start to identify metrics that are going to be meaningful?
Jonathan:I think that's really tough because so much of what we've been brought up in recently has been these digital metrics; the time onsite, the clicks, the views. And I think it all starts with just having a really hard look at your organization, and looking at what each level of your marketing strategy is really meant to achieve. I know a lot of companies are starting to look at the customer journey, and mapping out, "If you go to content piece A, you're more likely to go into content piece B, which will then funnel you into C, D, E, all the way down into a sale."
And I think that's a great first step because then you can start looking at, "Okay. What is really behind A that led you to go to B?" And it's not looking at it as just a straight line, but, "What are the kinds of emotions or attitudes we're trying to evoke from each step of that journey that will get you to move through?" I think if you can look at it more as ... How is your customer going to feel when they're engaging with your marketing? Versus simply as a piece of data on the screen that is a conversion or a click.
Anna:Nice. Yeah. So, basically, one, even just understanding how people are going through your content and what you want them ... Sort of that path to follow. Like, actually building out funnels and looking how people are going to and through content.
Adam:Yeah. I think just to highlight that point a little bit. When you look at that traditional marketing funnel, you've got the middle-of-the-funnel, you've got the bottom-of-the-funnel, and the goals there are really all about generating leads, nurturing leads, converting leads. But when you look at the top of the funnel and you really look at the goals there for most companies, again, it's all about awareness. It might be about education, things of that nature.
So, if you get CMOs, content marketers, digital leaders, to really step back and try and analyze and think about what their specific editorial goals are for their pieces of content ... Maybe their content hub, maybe it's their sponsored content, whatever it might be, and you get them to really break it down, then they start to see the holes a little more. It's just like in market research. Coming from that industry, Jonathan and I, we would never launch something without really understanding the goals and the objectives. It's always the place that anyone should start.
Anna:Nice. I feel like we are just starting to scratch the surface of this, but we've already gotten some amazing gold nuggets from you guys. We're going to talk a lot more about this, but first, we're going to take a super quick break to hear from our sponsors, and a special message from Jay.
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Randy:All right. We're back here on Conex, and we're talking all about how to figure out if our content is working. And I think so many of us are guilty of just trying to crank out more without taking the time. You guys ... You hit on something earlier that I found really interesting, and it's these wrong metrics that we look at. One of them that I remember always is, "How many likes do we have?" We'd wait to see for someone to add a Facebook like, or LinkedIn like, on the little widgets that AddThis would give us. But those days have changed, I think, for the most part. What are you seeing some of the goals that people are coming to you with these days?
Adam:Yeah. I think it is a bit industry dependent. So, if we look at, let's say, the banking and finance industry, for example. They are all about shifting perceptions, building trust. People don't think too highly of the banking and finance industry these days. So, the clients we work with and a lot of the leaders that we're talking to in that space are really focused on showing that they're different, that they're out there trying to help the consumer, that they're big into philanthropy, and doing a lot in the community. And again, building that trust, so at the end of the day, people will think of them when they're opening a checking account or when they need a mortgage. Really, that relationship building that's really necessary.
Randy:Yeah. That makes a lot of sense, but how do you do it? To your point, thought leadership is such a hard thing to prove. So, if I wanted to say that I wrote a piece of content and I want to try and attribute that to good will or brand awareness, how can I measure that today?
Adam:Yeah. I think the key is ... And when we were starting this and looking at all the different ways to go about it ... The key is, you really, actually, have to engage the individuals that engage with your content, so the people that viewed the video, or read the article, or that were on the content hub ... You can't rely on those passive behavioral metrics because that's all about the actions they took; not about their attitudes or their feelings. So, we've developed a way to do that, and it has to do with, again, reaching out, surveying that exposed audience, so the individuals that went to the content. And then measuring against a control group or a lookalike group. When you can look at how individuals expose the content actually felt and compared that to those who weren't, you can start to see the lift that that content produced.
Randy:Can you me a little bit more about that control group? I was following you 100%, and this all makes sense. I think sometimes we're too focused on big data, or data going into our marketing automation platform, and not the actual emotion, as you're saying, that this is creating. But how does the control group play in there, exactly?
Adam:Yeah. It's really important for us as market researchers, and just important in general, to have something to measure against, because if we're just looking at the thoughts, the ideas, or the feelings of the exposed audience, that doesn't really give us anything to go on. We don't know where they started. So, that control group is really vital. And essentially, what we try to do is find a lookalike audience. So, people that are similar from a demographic and psychographic standpoint, to that exposed group. In a perfect world, we want the only difference between the exposed group and the controlled group to be that the control group hasn't actually been exposed to the content. So, we can get a true read on the content's [inaudible 00:18:13].
Anna:Nice. So, you're really gaining an understanding of what exactly audiences are responding to and what they're looking for.
Jonathan:Yeah, absolutely. And that way, if you can isolate just the content as the only differentiating factor, then you can really start to dig down into how it is impacting people's emotions, how it's impacting the brand, and what it's really causing to the people who engage with it.
Anna:This is awesome, because I think sometimes, especially on the creative side ... Sometimes content marketers ... Or at least really, truly editorial content marketers feel that maybe sometimes data is the enemy of creativity. How do you sort of remedy this and help everybody see that data is really, actually, the way to get to creativity, and it's really the way to present the creative in the best way possible?
Jonathan:Yeah. I think it comes down to that idea that when you have very regimented, very quantitative data coming in, it kind of feels intrinsically like it's going to be an uncreative process. And maybe that is true. To a certain extent, it is very rigid. But when you can look at what your content is really producing out there, how it's really making people feel, that can only help you in the future, produce better and better content. So, if you can get a read on actually ... Not necessarily just how many times somebody read your article, but what they actually liked about it, and how it really made them feel, then you can really start to dig in and change your production techniques, and make better and better content. Make better videos, write better articles, that really are more relevant to people, and present your brand in a better light.
Adam:Yeah. And just to piggyback on that, we're noticing that individuals ... Whether it's digital leaders, whether it's creative ... They're inferring a lot from these behavioral metrics. You brought up an example earlier, Randy, about, "How many likes does something get?" Well, there's all sorts of reasons that I like something—just taking it to a personal level—on Facebook or a social media site. Maybe I found it funny, maybe I found the dog to be cute in the ad or the video. Whatever it is. So, you really have no idea. There's no context around it. And if I'm a creative, I'm really flying blind there, going forward. And it's not allowing me to really hone in on what worked and set a great strategy going forward.
Anna:Oh, my God. You could not have set up a better transition than what you had just led with, because my next question was actually going to be about vanity metrics and how ... Especially what you were just talking about. Liking something, but really not wanting to engage with a brand, or really wanting to engage further. Right? Like, just because I like something, doesn't mean that I want to then receive all of their ads. How do marketers sort of get out of the vanity metrics cycle? How do we look beyond and stop hanging onto those things that don't really matter?
Adam:Yeah. I think it's pretty hard to do, truth be told. It's pretty ingrained in the heads of digital marketers and even CMOs to look at those behavioral metrics and how people are progressing down the funnel. So, for us, at least, it's all about education, and it's all about getting people to take a step back and think about what that "like" or what that click really meant. And if you get them thinking about it, at the end of the day, they're not really sure ... And they'll say this to [inaudible 00:21:45], what kind of impact that really had or what it did.
Jonathan:Yeah. And to be clear I think that, in certain cases, a click, or a conversion, or a Scroll Depth ... These metrics can be extremely valuable. And usually ... Even in the case where it's not measuring exactly what you're looking to achieve, are still valuable metrics to have. If you're running a campaign that is purely about retargeting and then driving people to finish a checkout process ... They have something sitting in the cart, and they left, you need them to come back and finish that purchase. Then, your metric of conversion there, is about all you need. That is really your single measure of success in that circumstance.
But if your objective is to get people to ... Going back to banking and finance ... Thinking that your financial institution is a community leader, and is investing in the community, and is a philanthropic organization, simply clicking on the site and reading through that video about your investment portfolio in the community, doesn't really tell you anything. So, you need to start aligning your goal with your measurement, and you need to ask the question about exactly what you're trying to achieve, and not infer from a click what that might mean, when you really need to ask, "Is my company a philanthropic leader? Is my company a community leader?"
Randy:This is all very interesting. I'm sitting here, and I'm trying to think to myself, as both of you describe this, "Who on my team is responsible for this?" And that's something I always trying to think when we have a new idea or something where we're missing the mark. The problem I'm struggling with—and maybe one of you can direct me—is that a lot of what we're talking about is not traditional engagement data, right? So, if we have someone who's measuring a CO, or click-through rates, or things like that ... Is that still the right person to evaluate this, or is it someone on the content creation side? Back to your point on informing the next asset to create.
Adam:Yeah. That's a great question. I think, frankly, we seem to be all over the board. Jonathan and I just got off the call with a content leader at a major CPG company, and she brought in her head of insights to help kind of vet this and run the process. We've gone from insights, we've gone to analytics, we've gone to marketing leaders before, who said, "Listen. I am spending a ton of money. The investment is huge in this top-of-funnel content marketing. I'm going to take the reigns here and make sure that I know that it's moving the needle and that I can validate my investment.
The creatives ... Sometimes the creatives aren't too interested in testing their own creative. Sometimes they need a little bit of [inaudible 00:24:45], right? I wonder why. Exactly. Exactly. But it really is all over the board. And it's not something that's a huge, heavy lift to implement. It just takes a little bit of education to try and maybe shift the culture a little bit, and shift the thinking, and really kind of break things down, and be a bit more strategic.
Randy:That's really interesting. I think a lot of marketers listening to this are going to start to question who should own this in their organization, which is something I always encourage. Even in our team, [inaudible 00:25:19] to do. It sounds like this could almost have ... Like, with a corporate marketing team, depending on the size of your organization. But really has to be something that the CMO is thinking about, is whether we're investing in content just to get them [inaudible 00:25:32] leader, whether we're actually building our brand along the way, which is definitely a core part of everything I think marketers are trying to do with content and the content experience that comes with that. Gents, thanks so much. Jonathan, Adam, if you can stick around for a few minutes ... We'd love to get to know our quests. Anna's got a couple of questions lined up for you. So, let's stick around. We'll be right back here after a short break.
Anna:All right, Adam and Jonathan. We've gotten to know quite a bit about what you do on a day-to-day basis, so let's talk a little bit about you now, on the personal side. I have a question, first, for Adam. Adam, I know that you had mentioned before ... You are actually both a deadhead and a rap enthusiast, which ... It seems to polar opposite.
Adam:I know. You can't paint me with a brush. Yeah. I grew up outside of Boston, and was big into rap growing up in the 80s, and all of a sudden discovered The Grateful Dead during an interesting summer at overnight camp. And I've been hooked ever since. My musical taste really span the gambit there. Run the gambit.
Anna:Nice. Based on those two polar opposites ... Let's say somebody had never listened to The Grateful Dead before. What is one song you would recommend to them to get them into the band?
Adam:Yeah. That's a tough one. I would say probably something like an Estimated Prophet or a Scarlet Begonias. Something light. My gut is telling me to say Truckin' because it was one of their top 10 hits, but it's not my favorite. It might be a little too mainstream for me. My favorite song, personally, is Terrapin Station. I'm a big The Other One fan, so ... I could go on and on, but ... Yeah, I'd have to think about that and be pretty strategic, depending on who they are and how much jam music they really want to get into.
Anna:Nice. Okay. Perfect. So, everybody's got some good Grateful Dead recommendations there. Now, on the flip side, on the rap side, what's a group or even an album you would recommend people start with? What's one of your favorites?
Adam:Yeah. I'm all about starting with B.I.G. I think his first album was fantastic. I'm a huge Jay-Z. You can never go wrong with Tribe Called Quest. Huge fan of them. So, a couple of maybe the older school rappers. I'll even go back to a KRS-One as a great place to start as well.
Jonathan:A distinct east coast vibe here from Adam.
Randy:I'm trying to figure out how Spotify is even figuring you out, right? Because you're all over the place. Talk about the attempts to personalize content.
Anna:I think Adam might just break the Spotify algorithm. They're like, "I don't know." It's just like, "Shrugs shoulders." All right, so jumping over to Jonathan. So Jonathan, are you a big Netflix fan?
Jonathan:Probably since before they switched to digital, yeah. I've been getting Netflix DVDs sent over, and then once they went full digital, kind of never looked back from there.
Anna:Nice. So, you're like OG with the DVD mail-in subscription.
Jonathan:Oh, yeah. Those were the old days when you had to wait a week to get your DVD. And then there was the brief period where some things weren't online and some things were on DVD. And you found it on there. It's like, "Oh, no. I'll have to wait a week and a half before I can watch that season two of The Sopranos."
Anna:Yeah. No. I remember those days.
Randy:I guarantee some of our listeners are Googling that this even existed this time, because I think all we know now is Netflix as a streamer. It's like when I try and describe to me kids what it was like to go to Blockbuster. They're just like ... They just don't ... "Why would you do that?" Like, "Why would you put your boots on?"
Anna:That was like my Friday night in elementary and junior high, so ... All right. Now that we are all on Netflix, and you're a massive Netflix fan. Now that we know that ... What are you binge watching now, or what's coming up that you're really excited to binge watch? Because they have a bunch of stuff hitting streaming this month.
Jonathan:Yeah, that's a tough question. I had recently just got through the last two seasons of Veep. Loved Veep. Obviously it's not on Netflix, but it's on via the HBO streaming platform. But I finished that last weekend, so I'm kind of in one of those tough transition periods trying to find something. I might end up going back and re-watching some of the old sitcoms that are on there. Office, Parks & Rec ... They took off a couple of my older favorite ones. But those are always good standbys that you can throw on and kind of watch in the background when you're doing something else. I'm actually looking out for another solid, meaty, hour-long drama that I can watch six hours of in a weekend. This David Letterman series on Netflix, too, has been fantastic, where I think every month or so they add a new individual, celebrity, what have you.
Randy:Yeah. It's like a surprise guest or something like that.
Jonathan:Yeah. Absolutely. I've watched four or five of them. They've been fantastic.
Randy:That's amazing. Well, guys, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. It was great to get to know you a bit at the end here, and maybe I'll let the two of you together decide ... We'll see how in unison you are. We know you aren't on music, but ... On a single call to action, where should people go to to learn more about your business or yourselves?
Jonathan:Yeah. I would just go right to the website. So, www.ThreadlineDigital. T-H-R-E-A-D-L-I-N-E
Randy:Amazing. Well, thank you so much, and thank you to everyone who tunes in to this podcast, for taking the time to make this part of your week. Listening in, tuning in, and understanding the importance of content, the content experience. And today, I think we got to think a little bit more about what content is going to work for us to build that following. And I thank everyone for tuning in, whether you find us on Spotify, on iTunes, on Stitcher, on Google Play. When you can find us and leave feedback, let us know what we can do to make it better. Until then, thanks for tuning in.
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