Why the Best Content Doesn’t Always Win

Why the Best Content Doesn’t Always Win

Andy Crestodina, Co-Founder and Chief Marketing Officer at Orbit Media Studios, joins the Content Experience Show to discuss the importance of promotion and creating visible content.

In This Episode:

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Full Episode Details

It’s All About the Promotion

If you’ve spent any time hanging around musicians, you’ve likely heard one of them mention how much they hate pop music. You may have heard things like, “Yeah, but have you heard (insert band name you’ve never heard)? They’re so much better.” If you’ve followed that suggestion you probably realized that they’re right—that band is better. So why aren’t they on the radio?

It all comes down to promotion. The further we get from the 90s, the more good songs we hear on the radio. But the truth of the matter is that it’s not the best songs that make it—it’s the ones with the best promotion.

The same is true in the world of content: Content is only effective to the extent that it is seen. So while you must create great content, you also must put the same effort into promoting it.

In This Episode

  • How company websites have changed from previous decades.
  • The mistake many businesses make with embedded YouTube videos.
  • Why content brings long-lasting benefits, and ads are short-term.
  • Why promotion is just as important as the quality of your content.

Quotes From This Episode

“The benefits of content are durable and the competitive advantages that you gain are durable.” — @crestodina

The pieces of content we see every day aren't the best on the internet—they’re the best promoted. Click To Tweet We need to be working at least as hard at promoting our content as we are on making it. Click To Tweet

Resources

Content Experience Lightning Round

When you have some time to yourself, what shows are you watching on Netflix?

Andy is a fan of Black Mirror and Westworld, but also pines for the days of a great sci-fi story like Battlestar Galactica!

See you next week!

What Great Brands Do That Good Brands Don't in Content Marketing

Okay content is easy. Killer content is hard. This nifty eBook shows you the difference, based on our real-world work with dozens of brands. A must-read!

Episode Transcript

Randy: What an awesome podcast you're about to listen to. This is Randy Frisch. I've got Anna Hrach here with me. And, I think at any time Anna, we get to have Andy Crestodina join this podcast it's just gonna be fun. If we ever needed a third cohost together, it's gotta be Andy because it's just such a natural conversation anytime he's on a podcast in a room, what have you.
Anna: Yeah. It's actually really interesting how naturally he can flow from talking about Google Analytics, and doing realtime analytics tracking onstage, all the way into like the dystopian future of Black Mirror. It's kind of crazy how natural that transition is.
Randy: You're right. We could have ... I think at one point in this podcast, we're talking about Frozen and then somehow we're talking about naked people within 10 seconds of each other. But, it was very natural, as we found out. As we got there and people are now like, okay, I gotta listen to that. But-
Anna: I know. People are probably like scratching their heads right now. Like, what did I just tune into?
Randy: Yeah. What in the world [inaudible 00:01:04]? But, Andy, for everyone who doesn't know Andy, he's been on this podcast a couple of times before. He is the co-founder and CMO at Orbit Media Studios. They will help you optimize your site, your content strategy And, Andy's got this amazing book called, "Content Chemistry" that's ... You know, we talked at length as to what is it. Is it a book? It is a guide to life. Is it a text book? I think it's a guide to life at the end of the day. Especially, if you're a marketer.
Anna: Oh, it totally ... Yeah. This is something that honestly is a resource, it's a handbook, it's a field guide, it's a ... It covers the most essential pieces of content marketing, all the way down from how to create a strategy to the history of sort of the internet and how we got here now, all the way up to daily tips and tricks that you can use. It really is something that I think every marketer and every content marketer should have.
It's just gonna be filled with highlights, and post-its, and notes in the margins. It's really that good of a book.
Randy: Yeah. And, you know, we called [inaudible 00:02:05] during the podcast and talking with Andy. And, one of the things I think that's great about Andy is he's very fact based because he's a big researcher. He does a lot of different surveys during the year that you can get involved in if you're a marketer to give him feedback. And, as a result, he comes across as very opinionated, but when you look deep, it's all very fact based.
A lot of his ideas are rooted in really strong research so it feels editorial, but at the same time these aren't crazy statements. They're just looking at the real facts at the end of the day.
Anna: Yeah. It's just a super practical "How To" guide and, Randy, you and I have talked about this as well as sort of the rise of the generalist. And, people are having to take on more responsibility and do things a little bit outside their wheel house, so this is a particularly excellent resource for anybody out there who's having to extend themselves a little bit. Maybe you're a marketing manager, but you're also now having to take on a ton of email. Or, you're having to take on a ton of social. This is the book for you.
And, Andy gives a ton of amazing advice pretty much just about everything. And, we touch on a lot of key points, but I think everybody's really gonna enjoy this episode and then want to go over and run out and buy Content Chemistry.
Randy: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. There's a great part, I think it's in the second part of the podcast, where we talk about promotion and ways to get your content out there. Stick around for that piece 'cause it's really key ways that you can kind of change your approach to content marketing.
Anna: Definitely. Well, I think before we give away anymore we should bring Andy in. And, I think you brought him in? Right, Randy?
Randy: [inaudible 00:03:42] it was.
Anna: All right. Well, let's go ahead and bring Andy in and hear what he has to say.
Randy: Welcome to Conex, Andy. Thanks so much for being here. I mean, you've been on this podcast as couple of times before I believe and I'm gonna fully confess that I've got a bit of a cold today. I may sound off. But, there was no way I was missing your return because it's always fun when you come on. I learn a lot. Anna and I are really privileged to have you here. So, let's jump right into it.
Maybe you can just remind everyone what you do on a day to day basis.
Andy: Sure. So, I'm the co-founder of a webdesign company here in Chicago, called, Orbit Media Studios. And, I've been doing that plus the things that go with it like analytics and SEO, that whole time. So, that's 18 years. And then, it was 10 years ago that I started off on content. And, have done content strategy, and blogging, and social media, and email marketing ever since.
So, I'm just one of those guys that speaks, and teaches, and writes a lot. And, I'm a big fan of what you guys do and have been part of your conference. And, just love to be a part of this. So, I'm glad to be back.
Randy: Absolutely. You've been a highlight at the conference. I think that first year you spoke there, you were the most highly marked speaker and you did the whole delivery of a lead which was amazing. Maybe when we talk at the end we'll talk about the fact that you're gonna have your next delivery in your family, but we'll get to that. What have you been working on these days?
Andy: Well, the book is done. The fifth addition to the book is done. So, Content Chemistry is kind of an annual book. Or, it's a book that I have to rewrite 'cause it goes out of date. And, I've done so many times over the years, so this is now version five. And, it needed a bigger step back. So, it was ... I was a little bit quiet for a little while. I got up about two hours early every morning, sat in my kitchen in the dark with coffee before the baby and my wife woke up. And, rewrote about 80 percent of Content Chemistry.
And so, now, it's pretty much up to speed. It's kind of where it needs to be. And, it's launching. So, I'm very excited about that.
Randy: It's amazing. You know, Anna and I are both huge fans of this, I want to call it an asset because it is an asset to have an it's also ... It's very consumable because it's kind of chunked down. I feel like I can just open up to any page and kind of grab a thought or an idea and I can almost write my own blog post off of that. Or, I could learn from it and implement.
You know, one of the things that I found really cool was right at the beginning you kind of start off by contrasting where we've come from and where we're going or where we've gone from this idea of the old company website being brochure where, as you call it, to where we're going now where there's so many things kind of coming in and out to contribute to what our website experiences are.
Andy: Yeah. That was some feedback I got from one of the earlier additions, was that frame it up, give it some context, talk about the history and the state of marketing now. And, there's huge paradigm shifts, right? Because, this has been a couple of decades now and the tactic, and channel, and strategy that you and I love is putting, as Jay would say, the help before the hype. They used to all just be, every website, was basically just a downloadable brochure. We made tons of them. That was the internet. Every site was just like a bunch of sales stuff.
But, now-
Randy: Wait, the companies that have done this and have combined the tactics, and that's kind of what's in the book, is how to combine all these tactics, search, and social, and email, various formats, various contributors, collaborative content, influencer marketing. You put these things together and it's just incredible how much brand awareness and the kind of lead gen you can do when you build a machine that puts that help piece upfront. We're now fully in the era, both feet into the era of content.
Anna: Yeah. You know, it's kind of amazing too. I love the history that you give because even though most of us have looked through it, and worked through it, and we kind of remembered even still because some of that is really fresh. I mean, some of those big updates didn't really even come into play until a couple of years ago. But, it's so nice that you visualize just that shift.
And, not even just reciting the history of the internet. It's really showcasing visually how much things have shifted and representing where we are today. And, I think, you know, Randy, you called it like a textbook. And, Andy, I know you call it that too. But, I see it really as like a field guide. There's so much amazing information in here and, especially, as we see people taking on more and more skillsets outside of sort of their day to day title, right? This is really that field guide for those marketers.
Randy: Yeah. And, for the record, I think I'd be an asshole to call it textbook because we all hate textbooks. This is actually something that people will like to have accessible by the side of their computer desk, what have you.
Anna: I mean, I feel like it could be a textbook from one of those super fun elective classes that you just have to fill and are really interested in. It's like that kind of a textbook. Like, one that you love.
Randy: What was each of your best joke class, but you actually really enjoyed going to?
Andy: Yeah, it's, uh, college, the most popular classes, those professors understood marketing.
Randy: Oh, yeah. Mine was, it was Pop Culture. We literally learned about music, but it was really a history class 'cause you were learning about what music was created based on the times. I learned more in that class than anything. And, you'd never get me to sign up for a history course. That's why [inaudible 00:09:25].
Anna: I definitely took one of those. It was like a communications and film class. And, literally, we just had to watch movies every week and then write a five paragraph essay on it.
Andy: Amazing.
Anna: But, it was required for my degree, which was the weird thing. It was fun.
Andy: Well, it's a ... College classes and tech textbooks can be very boring. The idea of the book, and I'm glad you said it Anna, is to be super visual. It's supposed to be like the illustrated handbook. So, there's pictures on every page. But, yeah. I think that ... And, lots of schools use it as a textbook. I know that there's plenty to do. But, it's funny. College professors really could use a marketing trick or two, right?
One of the most popular classes at my school was called, "The Quest For Human Destiny". Who doesn't want to take that class?
Anna: That sounds like the most amazing 90's RPG video game though. It feels kind of amazing like I want to take that class.
Andy: Yeah. It was kind of a lit class, but it was in the religion school. And, I loved it. But, you couldn't resist. A huge auditorium. Like, kind of a rockstar lecturer. But, part of the genius was just the headline, which, hey, we know it. It matters. The words ... Those six, eight words you choose as your headline for whatever the format is, whatever the piece of content, whatever the event, whatever the podcast, whatever the article, whatever the book, whatever the college class ... Huge impact on the outcome, on the audience, on the reach.
Anna: Nice. So, now I'm just thinking about 90's RPG video games. So, going back really quick to the textbook style and the field guide style, one of the things you and I were chatting about before we started recording was you have these ... In every section, you have some amazing warning signs where you give all this amazing practical guidance and advice and how tos. And then, you kind of pause for a second and make sure to balance it with some of these warnings.
And, I love that they don't ever come across as condescending or limiting, but it's just such great sort of like, hey, heads up. How did you come to that? Because, I feel like that's missing with a lot of books that are in the content marketing field. You know, we have a lot of motivation, a lot of inspiration, but sometimes just anchoring it back is really necessary.
Andy: Well, I have so many conversations everyday with so many marketers about their projects, and their marketing their websites, and it's ... I get every question. And so, when you see what people ask or when I give advice and se how it's applied, I can almost immediately find out if it was something missing or something that was overdone or underdone. Or, a gap. So, a classic example, use video.
Okay, great, let's use video. YouTube's a popular platform. Okay, let's host it on YouTube. Okay, now I've got a YouTube video on my website, but most people don't watch the video till the end or even notice that so many videos on so many marketing websites have suggested videos that play at the end.
Like, I'm on someone's website and we just mentioned I've got a little kid. So, I'm on a management consulting website and now I'm watching SpongeBob on their website because they embedded a YouTube video and didn't uncheck the box in the embed code that said, don't show suggested videos when this plays. So, yeah, that's a classic-
Randy: I thought you were gonna say 'cause they're not using Uberflip. But that's okay. You can keep going. You've meant to. It's okay.
Anna: Nice.
Andy: Well, you guys solve one of the biggest problems for people, which is just getting the job done. So, if you want to go down that path there's-
Randy: Nah, I was just ... Yeah. It's very rare to do a product pitch. But, you lined it up so well. You know, I have another great example. Anna before was talking about how you drop your opinion within these. And, I think that's what's, again, we were talking about how this isn't a textbook. Textbooks are always all these like facts. And, there's ways to do it. There's one part in the, I'm gonna now call it a book, but where you talk about this idea that advertising is fast and temporary. Whereas, content marketing is slow but durable, right?
So, it's like ... This thing has your editorial opinion built into it. And, I find that whole idea really something that's giving us the truth. Yes, it's exciting to do advertising 'cause we think it's gonna give us immediate impact, but it's not really gonna last in the long run. How have you seen people adapt to that change when you talked about that?
Andy: I don't really notice as much how I'm injecting opinion into things, but I think you're right. I think I'm gradually getting a little edgier. Or, trying to remove softening statements and qualifiers and just say the thing more directly. And, in that case, it's just the case. It's just true. Every ad is temporary. It's there for as long as you keep paying for it. It disappears when you stop. But, they appear also very quickly. So, when you buy an ad you're gonna start interrupting people on that channel or wherever it is right away.
Content, longer gain, slower, takes a while to get traction. It's that flywheel effect. You've gotta build up your lifetime body of work. But, once it's out there, it can be ... Like podcasts. We're making something now, this episode will be there and they're totally binge-able. A lot of people consume podcasts in that way. So, this was in an ad we bought in the radio, it would be gone and then who’s ever gonna hear it again?
But, we're recording something that will live for weeks, months, even longer, and that's one of the beauties of it. It's that the benefits are durable and the competitive advantages that you gain are durable. So, the people that play, start early, go far, and stay long, people who do that end up crushing the competition. This is like a test of endurance.
Anna: Nice. That's, yeah. I love that you really emphasis that there is no magic wand. There's no genie in the lamp. There's no instant pill you can take to just have all of this content work magically overnight and have all your content marketing efforts work magically overnight.
I would love to get a little bit more into some of the promotion side, but first we're gonna take a super quick break to hear from our sponsors. So, stick around and we're gonna continue talking with Andy in just a bit.
Hey everybody, welcome back. We are talking with Andy Crestodina here. So, Andy, before we left for the break we started getting into advertising and promotion. And, there's a piece in your book that I want to talk a little bit about because I feel like maybe content creators might find this a little disheartening, but I don't think that they should. And, I think you have a very valid reason to explain to them why they should see it as encouraging.
But, it's basically the fact that you call out the best content doesn't win. It's the best promoted content that wins. Can you give us a little more insight into why that is and why content creators shouldn't take this as sort of a downer.
Andy: Yeah. It's just the reality of digital and content and how it all works because if there's a great piece of content with good promotion, it can't beat for visibility, and attention, and awareness a good piece of content with great promotion. The stuff that we see every day in our inboxes, and at the top of search results, and in then in your newsfeed, and wherever, these aren't the best pieces of content on the internet, they're the pieces that were successful at becoming visible. The best promoted.
And, it's always been true, right. The New York Times does not have a list of the best books. They have a list of the best selling books. So, in a way, it's a little bit disheartening because it could sort of suggest that we aren't getting the best stuff online. We're not finding ... It's like the greatest artist has never been discovered. Or, the most beautiful song, you'll never hear it because it just didn't have a good producer or marketing program behind it.
But, the key to ... The practical takeaway is that we need to be working at least as hard at promoting our content, on making it visible, on getting it out there as we are on making it. Yeah. So, you get the idea.
Randy: Yeah, and, Andy, I was gonna say you're so much eloquent than me sometimes because I tried to say this recently, but I chose more choice words, I guess. You know, earmuff your kids if need be right now. But, I told everyone to go fuck content marketing. And, some people yelled at me, like, what do you mean? And, my point was not that content marketing is bad. It's like you're saying. It's don't bother creating unless you have a way to get it out there to your audience in a way where they will consume it in a meaningful manner.
Andy: Exactly. It's not ... You can make something beautiful, you can make something brilliant, but it's not useful to the world unless it's seen and applied. This isn't for fun. We're not doing this for our health. Where I disagree with some of the ... Where is starts to breakdown is in the teachers who say, well, you should spend half you time creating it and half your time promoting it. Or, you should spend 20 percent of your time creating it and 80 percent of your time promoting it because what I think is missing from that is that really it's the while you're creating it you're building in the promotion. So, it's not like a separation of time.
For example, keyword research. I'm writing, I'm using key phrases, I'm understanding the semantics, I'm looking at how Google's thinking of this phrase and this topic, and I'm choosing my angle based ... I mean, what am I doing? Creation or promotion? It's both. They're not really separate things. You create promotable content. That's sort of the job. And then, you promote it.
So, they're blended together. They're mixed. Social media marketers know this. What topics are trending? Is that research piece creation or promotion? So, bottom line, have a plan to make sure that your stuff gets seen, including collaborators. Give yourself a social media advantage. Use high impact visuals. You know? Improve your click through rates, align it with a topic and key phrase. Give yourself an SEO advantage. Like all those little things must be considered during the creation of the content, otherwise, it's just crickets.
What happens? Nothing will happen. It's not ... The job isn't to ... It's a difference between just blogging and content strategy, right? Randy, this is kind of what your point is.
Randy: Well, and I think too, exactly kind of what you're saying and Randy's saying. And, exactly what your book touches on, Andy, is that if we're just head down and we're just focused on just writing, that's not gonna do anybody any good. You have to pull from all these different sources, you have to look at analytics, you have to look at trending topics, you have to look at search. I mean, there's so many places that really that strategy and having that foundation laid down affects ... And, you can't just go create content and put it out there. It's not The Field Of Dreams.
Andy: Yeah. And, when you start to get a feel for it, I think it's fun. It's actually more fun to play it like a sport and to plan the promotion and do that work because you get to see the results. And, eventually, you get a feel for it. We talked about this at Conex one year. It was like, the different, like some content has an actual advantage in search. Other content has an actual advantage in social. Content that answers questions, great in search. Content that triggers emotions, great in social. It meets expectations, good in search. It's unexpected, good at social. It's text and long form, good in search. It's visual and compelling, it's good in social.
So, I can almost look at headline, eventually you can just see a topic and know if that's gonna work. And, if so, in which channel. It's really ... I enjoy that. I mean, it's super interesting to me how algorithms work, how human psychology works. It can be overwhelming, I think, if you just keep in mind that, wow, there's way too many concepts here. But, that's the point of the book is to lay it out so that it's all prescriptive.
Randy: Oh yeah, this chapter ... And, every once in a while, Anna and I like to try and remind people why we call this podcast the Content Experience. Everything you're talking about right now is about that experience that people go through. I mean, this chapter ... There's this very basic part in it where you, I think, have the size of someone's finger to remind us now on a mobile experience how is someone gonna click on your call to action in your piece of content. How are you going to structure that asset?
And, I think that's obviously part of promotion, but a lot of us kind of think, okay, now that I've figured out creation, now I'm just gonna put it out there and hope people find it because I put dollars behind it. But, I think what you get into in here is that a lot more thought goes into when you're doing that how they experience on different devices.
Andy: Yeah. Post and pray doesn't really work too well.
Randy: Only a bit. Okay, Andy, this is always fun. We can go on for hours here, but one of the things that's always fun about you is getting to know you as well. So, we're gonna get you to stick around here on the podcast for a couple of minutes, get to know what's going on in your life behind the scenes, right back here with Andy Crestodina on Conex.
All right, Andy, so, we've got a couple more minutes here. Work and life always ends up we being together and I alluded at the beginning to the fact that when you were at your first appearance at Conex you did the delivery of a lead and you compared it to delivering your first child and what that experience for you and your wife looked like. And, I'm very excited for you because you've got another one on the way. So, tell us a little about that and how you're gonna work it into a blog post.
Andy: I don't want to be that guy whose like using his kids for marketing.
Randy: Oh, I use my kids for marketing every day. Absolutely.
Andy: Yeah, I guess. You know, they gotta pay the bills somehow. Well, that video was real time analytics, which is kind of hard to capture. But, eventually, I got it. It showed a visitor flowing through the website, through the busher part of the website. There's two kinds of visitors. There's the visitors of the blog and the content marketing content, and there's the visitors to the sales pages who we want to convert into leads. So, you could see in that video the person was traveling from a service page, to the about page, to the contact page, to the thank you page. A lead was born. Demand was generated. Like it really captured that moment. It's fun to show people and remind them that this is happening everywhere all the time on your competitors sites and on your sites.
And then, at the end, I showed the baby. That was two years ago 'cause he's two years now next week. And, the new baby's on the way. We're gonna name here Ada, a little girl.
Randy: Amazing.
Andy: Yeah. Ada's the name of the world's ... Ada Lovelace is the first programmer in the world. Not the first female programmer. I correct people. The very first programmer. The person who wrote the very algorithm was Ada Lovelace, a woman. So, let's not confuse that. It bothers me when people describe her as the first female programmer.
But, yeah. She's a mystery to me. I'm very excited about her, this woman, or this child that's gonna be born. And, it's any day now ... Technically, the due date's in ten weeks, but we'll see, or in ten days, but we'll see.
Randy: Yeah. There's no science to that. All art.
Andy: Yeah. Not scheduled in a tool there. You can't-
Randy: There's no app for that. There's no guidebook, textbook, nothing.
Anna: Nice. Well, I'm sure as the little one is on the way or even after she arrives you are going to be watching a ton of Netflix and streaming shows keeping your kid busy today. So, when you were not going to be watching all of their shows, like, I'm sure you've seen Frozen probably a million and one times by now, right?
Andy: Yes, I have.
Anna: So, when you actually get a-
Randy: It's so good. It's so good.
Andy: It is.
Anna: When you actually get a couple of minutes to yourself and you actually get to watch some adult shows that you like on Netflix, what are those shows? What would you recommend for anybody kind of surfing right now?
Andy: Well, I'll be the millionth person to recommend, Black Mirror. I mean, how deep are you guys into this?
Randy: I'm into it, but it's disturbing sometimes. You should not watch that show if you're alone on the road. Like, I know you do a lot of talks and stuff. Don't watch that before you go to bed alone. It's just ... Your mind wanders.
Andy: It's scary. It's too real. Westworld is coming back, that HBO show. So, we may get that again. That's another future kind of dystopia-
Randy: I can't wait for that. Yeah.
Andy: Yeah. That's gonna be really good. There's a lot of Black Mirrors spinoffs. I think ... Or not spinoffs, but copycats. Amazon's trying to make one. I wanted to watch Altered Carbon, never got through the first episode.
Randy: It's funny. I literally tried to watch it yesterday on the plane back from Chicago, you're hometown, and yeah, it was a little too much.
Andy: Where's the new ark, big story ark? Sci-fi, like, Battlestar Galactica? Do you remember that one? I loved that show.
Randy: My issue with that show that you just said, I can't even remember the name of it, you never know when you're on a plane and you downloaded on of these episodes, and there's just too much nudity. And, you're just like so conscious of the screen. And, you're like, I'm not that guy. I'm not the guy whose like into doing this. And, for sure, there's like a kid one row behind you who's like keeps [inaudible 00:27:12] weird. It's like, no, can't do it.
Andy: And, you would have never have even noticed it if you'd been at home.
Randy: Oh, for sure, not. You're just like, oh it's a little casual, you know-
Andy: It's just a show. Yeah. Then it's just a show. But, now, when you got kids around, that's another thing that changes. It's like, suddenly, you're like hyper aware of like, "Oh, my God. Is that what that song is really about? I always loved that song and now they can't say that." That's kind of funny.
Anna: Nice. I also love the pendulum swing, going from like Frozen super lighthearted Disney movies all the way over to dystopian future where technology is controlling us and completely ruining us. So, nice. I like that pendulum swing.
Randy: The algorithms are very confused, right? What does your Netflix look like? The recommended shows? Are like dinosaurs on the beach and then it's like Saw 4 or like crazy ridiculous [inaudible 00:28:04]?
Anna: I love it. Well, Andy, thank you so much. Like Randy said, I feel like we could just go forever. You were so much fun to talk to, but unfortunately, our time has come to a close. So, on behalf of Randy Frisch at Uberflip, thank you so much for joining us.
This has been Conex, The Content Experience Show Podcast. You can find this podcast pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts these days, including iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Play. And, of course, at contentexperienceshow.com.
Just do us a favor, everybody, when you do find us, leave us a message and let us know what you love and what you'd like to hear more of on the show. We love your feedback. Until next time, thank you so much for tuning in. And, we'll talk to you all next week.
 
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