Pros and Cons of a Degree in Internet Marketing

Temitayo Osinubi, Content Strategist at Digital Marketing Advisers, joins the Social Pros Podcast to discuss how a formal degree in internet marketing can give you perspective and an edge in this super-competitive field.

In This Episode:

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Full Episode Details

Get Skilled. Land the Job. Keep the Job.

The internet marketing field is noisy and crowded. It seems like just about everybody considers themselves an expert in online marketing, and in particular, social media, which makes it difficult to push your career above the horde.

While many advance their skills through conferences, podcasts, networking, and Google, Temi has taken the path less traveled. He obtained an official degree in Internet Marketing from the online, accredited Full Sail University.

This unusual move has positioned him a head above the rest when it comes to knowledge and skills with staying power. Instead of dropping $15,000 on one conference to learn about funnel hacking from one person, he completed a final project on funnel hacking under the advisement guidance of several experienced marketers.

His experience going through the program has not only given him marketable skills, but a widened perspective on the field that makes him adaptable, innovative, and effective.

In This Episode

  • How formal training in social media marketing leads to an expanded lens on the marketing industry
  • Why landing upper-echelon jobs in digital marketing means ditching Google as your trainer
  • Why tackling the diversity in marketing means more authentic representation at conferences
  • How the advancement of marketing technology will lead to a natural selection of marketing professionals
  • How the pressure of private, adaptable universities leads to a change in curriculum of traditional, public universities
  • Why moving your audience past content fatigue means investing in podcast storytelling


Quotes From This Episode

“There’s a gap in terms of professionalizing yourself.” —@tembo8482

You can get a lot of information for free but rooting it out takes skill on the searcher's part. Click To Tweet

“The promise of marketing is the right message at the right place to the right person at the right time, rather to the right person.” —@tembo8482

“The amount of content out there has far outstripped the human being’s capacity to make sense of it all, and artificial intelligence is how you deliver on the promise of one-to-one marketing at scale.” —@tembo8482

You are enough. You can do this. And representation is a really big deal. Click To Tweet

“We still have far too many people who think that because they know how to use Facebook that that qualifies them to be someone’s social media manager, and it doesn’t.” —@tembo8482

“Marketing has changed more in the last two years than in the preceding 50, and people’s mindsets haven’t caught up.” —@tembo8482

Amateurs try to prove themselves right, and professionals try to prove themselves wrong. Click To Tweet

“One of the main misconceptions that people have is that because this information is coming from a school and the halls of academia, the curriculum only changes once a generation. And that’s just not true.” —@tembo8482

“All of us as social media marketers and communicators have to realize, because of our position, we can do different things that a traditional marketer simply cannot.” —@adamcb

“The way that you overcome content shock is by telling stories in a very specific, structured way because everybody can talk, but very few people can tell a story.” —@tembo8482



See you next week!


Jay: Welcome, everybody, to Social Pros, the podcast for real people doing real work in social media. I am, as always, Jay Baer from Convince & Convert. I am joined again by my very special Texas friend. He is the executive strategist for Salesforce Marketing Cloud. He is your friend and mine, Adam Brown.
Adam: Jay, it’s an honor to be your friend and it’s an honor to aspire to be the friends of all of our tens of thousands of listeners. What a great place to be in. How are you?
Jay: I’m awesome, I’m doing so great-
Adam: Yeah?
Jay: I finally got my boat in the water, which I’ve been working on since October, so that was a journey, an aqueous journey, that has culminated in me driving my boat around the lake, so that’s been great. Tends to reduce your blood pressure my man, when you’re out in the water.
Adam: It tends to reduce your blood pressure, but it reduces something else. The old adage is a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money.
Jay: Yes, they say that the two best days of owning a boat are the first day and the last day. So far, we’re doing okay, but I’ve only had it a week, so it hasn’t been a huge problem. Get back to me on next week’s show. Things are getting-
Adam: We’ll follow up with you on that. Good-
Jay: Thank you again.
Adam: … That is fantastic. I’m sure it is beautiful this time of year where you are.
Jay: Well, you know it’s been a weird year everywhere in the country, I think, for weather. And here in Indiana, today is fantastic, but it’ll rain for the next five days and then be good again. It’s just been really up and down, but it’s okay. As long as you got some ups it’ll be fine. But you know what I was thinking about, as I’m on the boat last night with my daughter and I thought, “You know, I’ve been doing this show for six years-
Adam: Wow.
Jay: … 270 episodes or whatever.” And man, what a privilege it is to do this show. The number of people that I’ve met and all the many, many, now probably close to a million downloads of this show and people who listen all the time. What an unbelievable ride this has been. I’m really delighted to keep on doing it with you, my man.
Adam: Well, it is, and as much as I enjoy doing this and doing it with you, I’ve learned so much from our guests and the experiences that they’ve had and the stories that they tell. I probably get as much or more out of this out of all our listeners, ’cause I’m sure they’re taking notes as they’re hearing things. And I always say, when you go to a trade show, or a conference, or you listen to a podcast like this, if you can get just one or two ideas out of every listening or session, then it’s more than kind of paid for the investment of time.
Jay: Yeah.
Adam: And I get that two fold, three fold, four fold every week on this show, so it’s an honor for-
Jay: So, there you go, folks. If you hire Salesforce Marketing Cloud and you get recommendations from Adam, it really comes from Social Pros, so that’s how it goes.
Adam: That right. The world, we’re a universe of-
Jay: Crowdsourcing. We’re crowdsourcing the strategic initiative that’s Salesforce Marketing Cloud. Thank you listeners, and yes, that’s fantastic.
Adam: Absolutely.
Jay: Our guest today on the show is also a listener of the show, a long time listener, and we are so fired up when that happens. It’s somebody who knows this show, likes this show, has listened to the show is also a guest. Temi Osinubi is live on the show from Atlanta, who is also a podcaster. Temi welcome to the program.
Temi: Honored to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Jay: Tell us a little bit about what you been doing.
Temi: Well, I host a podcast called Marketing Disenchanted, and I try to give accurate perspectives of what it’s like on professional digital marketing from the perspective of someone who has a degree in internet marketing. And we bust myths, we tell jokes, and we just try to give people a perspective on … Bring some clarity to the educational process. Because, in my personal opinion, there’s a gap in terms of professionalizing yourself, and it’s a question that I get with some frequency, like “Should I go to school? Should I not? Gary V. said this, blah blah blah.” And so, I just lend my perspective, and I’ve had the opportunity to talk to some of the smartest marketers on the planet, many of which I scout directly from your guest list. So, thank you for that.
Jay: Right on. My pleasure.
Temi: Yah, that’s about it.
Jay: Let’s talk about that a little bit. This idea of … ‘Cause your background, you’ve done some paid search as well, right? You kind of came from that side a little.
Temi: Absolutely.
Jay: So, let’s talk about that. So, you actually have a degree in online marketing and did very, very well in school. I think I read on your LinkedIn that you were the salutatorian of your class. So, not only-
Temi: Yes.
Jay: … Do you have a degree, you were very top of the class, so congratulations on that.
Temi: Thank you.
Jay: What do you think about that? I suspect you believe that … You’ve certainly learned some things in that program that you wouldn’t have known, but obviously many, many people, including I, would say almost all of our guests on Social Pros, now across six years, don’t have any scholastic training in this business, and partially because it didn’t really exist for a long time. Where do you come down on that?
Temi: Well, the benefits are broad and it’s much more than content. So, in the first few episodes of my podcast I go over some of the epiphanies that I had going through the degree program. My story is that I originally came to digital marketing trying to escape name discrimination. Over here, my name is kind of exotic, Temitayo Osinubi, but over in Nigeria, where my father is from, it’s kind of like Bob Smith. But anyway, when I entered the workforce, I was having a trouble getting a job because some HRs, who are less than enlightened, if they cannot pronounce your name, they don’t call you back.

And so, it was around 2004, and I was like, “You know what? Screw this. I don’t have to deal with this. It’s the age of the internet. I can just go online and make money.” And so, I went to Google and typed in how to make money online, and that drew me headlong into network marketing, info marketing, where you’re from, whatever you want to call it, and I completely bombed out on that like 90% of people. But through it all, I managed to learn a few things and develop a good business acumen. So one day, this is back in 2011, 2012, I was involved in my local real estate association back in Dayton Ohio, GDREIA. I know that sounds like a venereal disease, but it’s not; stands for the Greater Dayton Real Estate Investors Association.

Jay: I’m going to have to Google that actually, I’m not totally sure I believe you, but I’ll take your word for it.
Temi: GDREIA, yeah. I was the wholesaling chairperson for GDREIA, because I had done a whopping five deals and that made me an expert. And so, I was online making a post for the next meeting. My mother had just released her first book and I was doing a post for that, and I was also managing one of my high school friends, who’s a local rap artist. So, I had all this different balls in the air, and then it hit me, literary like a cartoon unveil. My head cocked to the side and I was like, “For as disparate as all of these business activities are, the one thing that they all have in common, besides me, is internet marketing. So, If I was going to be an internet marketer anyway, I may as well get good at it. But, due to my previous experience, I was really wary about gurus telling me that they can make me the next rock star if I just paid them X. So, I was really refreshed when I found an actual and accredited degree program from a university that taught internet marketing.

Content aside, yes, let’s just get the elephant out of the room in terms of just raw content. Yes, you can learn it in different places, often times for a lot cheaper, but just in terms of … One of the biggest takeaways that I’ve had, that I would not have gotten anywhere else, was how broad and expansive the industry actually is. So, a lot of times I’ll compare it to the medical field, in that it’s very broad and there are several areas of specialization. And so, for example, as a doctor, you can be a heart surgeon, brain surgeon, OB-GYN, you can go a million different ways being a doctor. And like a lot of people when I entered the degree program, I sort of coupled it with social media. If you said you did digital marketing, I would think you did social media. And there are a lot of areas of specialty that don’t revolve around social media-

Jay: Yeah.
Temi: … And that was the perspective that I really didn’t have before, because like I said, however you’re introduced to something kind of colors the lens through which you view it-
Jay: Sure.
Temi: … And Once I went through the program, I got several different lenses.
Jay: What do you say to people who put out there, “Hey going to school’s a waste of time. You could just learn this all yourself. You could just listen to Social Pros or listen to the Disenchanted Marketing podcast and pick up all the things you need to know. Just go out there and do it.”
Temi: I disagree, respectfully, because yes, you can get a lot of information out there for free. However, contrary to popular belief, rooting it out does take a degree of skill on the searcher’s part. You may land on Convince & Convert. You may end up doing Amway. Who knows where that Google rabbit hole goes, and there are several factors affecting that. You got Web 2.0, you got the Paradox of Choice, and most importantly, you don’t know what you don’t know, right? Cause we’ve all seen-
Jay: Sure.
Temi: … That diagram where you have three circles. The first is stuff that you know, the second is stuff that you don’t know, that you know you don’t know. For example, I know that I don’t know how to fly a plane or deliver a baby. And the third circle is what you don’t know that you don’t know. You don’t even have a concept of it. So, you really can’t go to Google and request information on something that you don’t know exists.

And so, that’s the first major chink in the “Just Google it” armor. And I do think that professional education plays a role in becoming a professional, because … It’s really funny. Last week, or week before last rather, you released episode, I want to say, 266 with LaSandra Brill.

Jay: Yeah.
Adam: Yeah.
Temi: It just so happened that this was during Atlanta Tech Week and I was on my way to Sage Summit. And one of the big takeaways from that show was that AI is where social media was 10 years ago.
Jay: Yep.
Temi: And it was so serendipitous. It was like that red thread tying the whole week together to borrow from Tamsen Webster, her program, because I went down to Sage Summit, and they are accounting and finance software, and they do a lot on the AI side. They have their own chatbot named Peg, and I was able to see a little robot that you can actually interact with. I got a video on my Twitter. This guy kept asking the robot what its name was and it’s like, “Are you asking my name? I don’t understand. Are you asking my name?” I’m like, “We”-
Jay: So not quite perfect yet? It’s in beta.
Temi: Not quite.
Jay: It’s beta. Needs improvement.
Temi: We got a while before the machines kill us all.
Jay: Yeah.
Temi: But that was the big takeaway, that AI is definitely where social media was 10 years ago, because the promise of marketing is the right message at the right place to the right person at the right time, rather to the right person. And we’re producing just so much data. 90% of the world’s information is less than a year old. And I know that sounds preposterous to a lot of people, but you just got to think, there’s 400 hours of video uploaded to YouTube every minute. And that’s just one content format on one platform. After you add back in all of the pictures, blog posts, tweets, white papers, et cetera, you’re literary talking about hundreds of years per minute, and this has far outstripped the human being’s capacity to make sense of it all, and artificial intelligence is how you deliver on the promise of one-to-one marketing at scale-
Jay: Yeah, no doubt.
Temi: … And to your point that you made, was data scientists don’t grow on trees. That’s a very specific skillset, and I think that, bottom line, there are certain levels of craft that you’re not gonna Google your way into. You can Google a lot, and you can find out a lot, but when you’re talking about that upper-echelon, you’re talking about becoming an AI expert. I don’t care how good your Google skills are, you’re typically not gonna Google your way into that-
Jay: Yep.
Temi: … And even if you did, there does come an access to capital issue, especially, in my experience, if you’re a minority. Because I’m a distinct minority in the fact that I went back to school to get my degree, but by far the way that people professionalize themselves and disseminate best-in-class practices is through conferences and seminar. And even though, in aggregate, it’s a lot cheaper than the 57,000 I had to borrow to get my degree, you’re still talking between three and 5,000 for a single conference. And if you take-
Jay: Sure.
Temi: … ClickFunnels for example, right? ClickFunnels has a conference that they call Funnel Hacking. Well at Full Sail University, they just call that your final project, right?
Jay: Yeah.
Temi: There’s a little bit more to it than that, ’cause you have to go through the whole thing, you gotta do … You gotta build a persona, do a SWOT analysis, write a marketing brief, but long story short, if you can do funnel hacking as described by Russel Brunson, you pass, right?
Jay: Yeah, sure.
Temi: And so, Funnel Hacking Live is in Texas. It’s about a grand. You can get it a little cheaper than that if you get an early bird price. And plus, Russel Brunson has his VIP coaching/inner circle, whatever you want to call it. And that’s upwards of-
Jay: Which concludes the event. Yeah.
Temi: … Exactly. And that’s upwards of 10,000, so you’re looking at, even though you’re gonna get an equivocal education where you can go out and start servicing clients, you’re looking at a 15 grand out of pocket.
Jay: Yeah.
Temi: I ain’t got it.
Jay: Yeah, yeah.
Temi: So it’s like, yeah, you can make out cheaper. But if you don’t got 15 grand, you might want to hear what Sally Mae has to say.
Jay: Yeah, Russel doesn’t really have a big scholarship program, most likely.
Temi: Yeah, it’s not set up that way.
Jay: Yeah, no doubt. One of the other things that you’ve talked about is diversity in digital. That it’s an area that, I think nobody is going to argue this point, has a ways to go. What’s your take? What’s the steps that need to happen to improve in that area? Then I’ll turn over to Adam.
Temi: I think one of the major steps that need to happen is more black speakers at conferences and us, as black speakers, doing a better job of getting out there. I think that, given the current political climate where you see just monstrous things on television, we see folks like ourselves getting killed on national television and seemingly nothing happens. There is this sentiment among younger black people that, “I’m woke” or whatever and, “I don’t want to, you know … I don’t necessarily want to go to a university just so that I can go beg a white man for a job.” And I think that’s misguided and I think that we have to step up and say, “Hey, being a pro does not necessarily mean that you go work for Coca-Cola. Being a pro speaks to a level of performance, a level of excellence. Like, that’s the difference between a pro and an amateur.”

You’re playing the same basketball as Kobe Bryant, you’re playing the same game, but clearly Kobe Bryant plays at a much higher level than you. So, that’s the distinction, and the HTML is the same. Regardless if you’re coding for yourself or you’re coding for Coke, the HTML is the same. Not only that, but black people own corporations. We really do. LLC stands for limited liability corporation. And I wrote a blog post on my LinkedIn a couple years back called Mike King of iPullRank is my Stuart Scott. ‘Cause back at the time, legendary sportscaster Steward Scott had just died, and of course you had all the tributes, but one that stuck me in particular was from Keyshawn Johnson. And when Keyshawn Johnson first started sportscasting, Stuart Scott sat him down and was like, “Look, you are okay as you are. You don’t have to change who you are to do this. You can look how you look, sound how you sound, you can perform at this level.”

And that was huge for Keyshawn. And Mike King, and Bonin Bough of Mondelez International, formerly Kraft Foods, and Will Wright of Seer Interactive, and Sean Gardner, and the rest of them, they did the same for me, because from the outside looking in, when you look at a lot of conferences, you don’t see a lot of black faces. But when you can see those gentlemen I just mentioned, it says that, “Hey, you’re okay as you’re.” Hell Mike King, he’s gonna be speaking at digital summits starting here tomorrow in Atlanta, and he was a independent rapper. He’s actually rapped at MozCon before, so it’s like, you can’t do better than that in terms of just seeing yourself in the industry as you are.

And I think that the more Mike Kings, the more Bonin Boughs, the more people that we have who represent black men and black people in particular, the more we can say, “Hey, I know you have a certain perspective, but I don’t change the way I talk.” And I talk to all kinda people, and you are enough. You can do this. And representation is a really big deal.

Adam: Well, to me, I think another big point, especially with people like Bonin, like Scott Monty, who I know you’ve had on the Marketing Disenchanted podcast, and all the others, Mike, that you’re speaking to. One of the other sides of this is that they’re also bringing respect to social media as a profession. And I know that’s a topic that’s pretty passionate for you. And my question for you is, is social media getting more respect as a profession, and what do you think it’s gonna take for that progression to continue? In my opinion, and probably Jay’s, is we see marketing and PR folks beginning to see the importance of social media, because heck, they’re seeing more and more of marketing dollars being attributed to it. But when is it going to take non-marketers to say, “Okay, social media is truly a profession. It is an industry in its own right that is respected both with the professionals and marketing communications, as well as externally?”
Temi: My short answer is yes and no. I do think that, to your point, it is becoming more respected in certain circles, but we still have far too many people who think that because they know how to use Facebook that that qualifies them to be someone’s social media manager, and it doesn’t. And in terms of what it’s going to take to wake people up who aren’t in the space, unfortunately I think it is going to take the AI revolution really kicking into gear and it becoming inescapably clear that your nephew or your cousin, who took one class six years ago … This is real stuff-
Adam: Yeah.
Temi: … That you need to be qualified for. Because unfortunately, the industry has changed. There’s a quote from Michael J. Becker. He’s a mobile expert with mCordis that I used in our book. He says that marketing has changed more in the last two years than in the preceding 50.
Adam: Yeah.
Temi: And people’s mindsets just haven’t caught up, and we’re getting to the point where there’s going to be a real pipeline issue in terms of putting the right people on marketing teams, and just this gaping hole in terms of … Like I said-
Adam: Yeah.
Temi: … Data scientists don’t grow on trees.
Adam: We were at the Oracle conference a few weeks ago, and I hosted this summit of CMOs, about 150 from big companies, and one of the topics that we really spent a lot of time on was this concept that the technology being produced by organizations like Salesforce, Oracle, Adobe, IBM, to some degree Sprinklr, the technology is outstripping the labor pool, right? The amount of AI and tech and one-to-one marketing and data science is going so fast now, there just aren’t people on existing marketing teams. there aren’t enough people on existing marketing teams to actually do what the software allows them to do. And so, CMOs are having this major sort of personnel issue, like, “Where do we find these people?” We talked a little bit about it on the episode with LaSandra a couple weeks ago, and I think you’re right. That as complexity continues to increase it will have this sifting and sorting mechanism, like a bad Harry Potter movie, right? Where somebody will be like-
Temi: Right.
Adam: … “Gryffindor.” And if you’re Gryffindor, you get to be a professional marketer. And if you’re Slytherin, you don’t. And it won’t be a sorting hat. It will be, “Do you know how to actually execute this stuff on the software side?”
Temi: Right.
Jay: And I think you add to that the challenge that these people that we’re speaking about, from an AI standpoint, are not being graduated out of j-schools and comm schools. I think, not withstanding, Temi, your experience with actually having a degree in internet marketing, which is fascinating.
Temi: Yeah, and I am a Gryffindor, for the record. I am not ashamed that I am Pottermore, and my Ilvermorny house is Thunderbird.
Jay: Nice, wow. We’re getting deep now.
Adam: Yeah.
Jay: I love it.
Temi: Indeed, indeed. But yeah, I think that … Like I said, I think that as professionals, we have to do a better job of really addressing these elephants in the rooms and these misconceptions that folk have, and being respectful about it, right? Because, I want to say it’s episode 10 or so, I have this analogy that I call Gary Vaynerchuk a male gynecologist. And what I mean by that is that … I say that with a great deal of respect, because I have three children by two different women, and all three of my children were delivered by a male gynecologist. And my mid-child, Gabby, she actually had to be delivered via emergency C-section, because her umbilical cord was wrapped around her head. And, I tell you Jay, it was like a scene out of Grey’s Anatomy, I’m not kidding.

We’re all sitting there and Dr. Frasier, Dr. Percy Frasier, old man, walks in and he’s surrounded by two nurses, and orderly, and some other folks. He just walks in and says, “Hey, I know you really wanted to go natural, but unfortunately we’re not able to do that. The baby’s in distress. We’re you gonna have you in surgery in five minutes. Only two people can go back with you. Decide which two and I’ll see you in a few minutes.” And he turns around and walks out. And so, of course, we’re all starting to freak out a little bit, because we’ve just been told that the baby’s in distress. Didn’t tell us why or what was happening. He was just like, “This is happening now.”

And so, 30 seconds later, another nurse comes in and says, “I’m gonna get you ready for surgery. Which two of y’all are going back.” “Okay, I’m going back.” And one of my ex’s older daughters went back. And so, two minutes later we’re in the hallway, somebody comes gets my ex, wheels her out, and four minutes and some change later, the doctor was cutting, right? And so, that was a very high-stress experience, and it-

Jay: Yeah.
Temi: … just shows that the level of expertise that this male gynecologist had, but that being said-
Jay: I had the exact same issue. Same exact story.
Temi: Yeah.
Jay: … And I’m like, “Man, why aren’t you more stressed out than you are?”
Temi: Exactly.
Jay: Because I was like, “I’m freaking out. This guy’s way too cool about this.”
Temi: He’s chewing gum, Jay. He played Papa Was a Rollin’ Stone in the thing, ’cause Dr. Frasier’s a old man; he was like 68 at the time. He’s probably in his early 70s by now. And I’m telling you, it was like a day in the office. And I tell that story, because I know Gary V has very big following and I don’t want his beehive coming after me, and I’m a fan of Gary V. That being said, I don’t care how many babies Dr. Frasier has delivered and I don’t care how many C-sections he’s performed. As a man, he does not know what it feels like to have your belly slit and a person pulled out of you. Whereas, when we’re talking about getting a degree program, in that analogy, I would be a female OB-GYN who has actually had a cesarean section as well. So, I can kinda give a different perspective and give some guidance from actual experience, in my opinion. My viewpoint is based on experience, not opinion or theory.

And I think that those of us who have that experience have to … Again, respectfully, I’m taking shots. I’m just drawing distinctions and trying to bring clarity that, “Okay, I went through this process, and as I went through this process, here’s that I experienced.”

Jay: Yeah. Well, it’s probably … If you did a study on the people who say you don’t need to go to school, and analyzed how many of those people went to school, I would guess it’s less than half. Because you typically advocate for that you believe to be true, and what you believe to be true is often, not always certainly, but often, colored by what you have personally experienced. You’re always trying to ratify your own decision making. It’s just the way things are. I do this all the time with my wife. It drives her crazy. If I pick a new restaurant that we’ve never been to and I decide to go there, I’m always trying to make sure that she thinks it’s a good restaurant. ‘Cause otherwise, I look like an idiot for picking a bad restaurant, right? I do the same thing all the time. And we’re always trying to make ourselves right. That’s why my friend Tom Webster … You mentioned Tamsen earlier. Tamsen’s husband Tom, he was a professional market researcher, has a fantastic line that I come back to again and again and again in my life, which is, “Amateurs try to prove themselves right, and professionals try to prove themselves wrong.” And I think that’s exactly appropriate for this conversation.
Temi: Absolutely. And not only that, the other half. Those who do have degrees, have degrees that don’t directly relate to digital marketing.
Adam: Are you serious?
Jay: Are you talking about my political science degree now? Wait a second. No. You know. No.
Temi: No, no, no. In fairness, the degree programs were only recent. I think Full Sail’s first year was 2007. But John Lee Dumas, for example. I take his free podcast courses; one of the reasons I started podcasting. He’s on the record as saying several times that all college gets you is debt. Well, JLD’s degree has absolutely nothing to do with digital marketing, so-
Jay: Yeah.
Temi: … It’s like you kinda have to take it for what it is.
Adam: Well, let’s take this next hurrah, this next horizon, which we can all agree is AI, artificial intelligence. How long, Temi, do you think it’s gonna take for there to actually be classes, and training, and curriculum on that particular topic. I mean, if we … Be perfectly honest, if you go to the private schools and the non-profits, the for-profit universities have us by storm and they get serious kudos in my book for it. But you still have land grant institutions and traditional private colleges that are still not teaching social, or barely teaching social, and social media. How long is it gonna be until they teach AI? It’s gonna be 10 years.
Temi: Yeah, I would agree with that. I can only speak for Full Sail, because that’s the institution that I went to. And as far as Full Sail, I would probably say within the year or early next year. ‘Cause that’s one of the main misconceptions that people have, is that just because this information is coming from a school that it’s coming from the halls of academia, and the curriculum only changes once a generation. And that’s just not true. Most, if not all, of the teachers at Full Sail University have their own agencies or consult. And so-
Adam: Yeah.
Temi: … The curriculum actually adapts fairly quickly. If you go back and you look at my transcripts and then you look at the degree program that’s on there now, it’s a very different degree program. So, as far as Full Sail … And their internet marketing program is online only. So, it’s not like you can actually go to the campus in Winter Park, Florida. It’s strictly online. I would say it changes. It doesn’t change drastically. The fundamentals are still there. But I would say it changes probably every 12, 18 months. But I had Mark Schaefer on the show, and he said very much the same thing. He said that the current state of digital marketing education in traditional colleges and universities is pathetic. And pathetic is his word. He said it’s pathetic. And it probably will take five, 10 years before your traditional universities catch up. But in my perspective, I think that that puts more pressure on them, because-
Adam: Yeah. Agreed
Temi: … As Full Sail looks better. It’s sort of like Airbnb putting pressure on the W or traditional hotels, right? Because if you look at hotels now, they’re really starting to embrace mobile. And you have some hotels where you can download an app, and they use near-field communication, and you can just completely bypass the check-in desk. And all you have to do is tap your phone to the door, and not only will it unlock the door, but it will reconfigure the hotel room to your preferences. So, your Netflix queue is already queued up on the TV. It’ll automatically adjust the temperature of the room depending on your settings. Now, the hotel industry isn’t doing that because they’re with it. They’re doing that because they’re under tremendous pressure from Airbnb. And I think that as Full Sail continues, and other institutions like it continue to snap up all the students, that this is gonna put tremendous pressure on your landlocked institutions and they’re just gonna have to get with it or get lost.
Adam: Well, I’ll add one thing to that, Temi. ‘Cause I love that analogy. I think with the hotel situation, this is kinda going back to marketing 101, the idea of a unique selling proposition. Hotels are freaking out because of Airbnb and the like. What is one thing they can do? One thing they can do is, because all their rooms are exactly the same and because they have IT budgets, they can do exactly like you said. They can do the near-field communication. They can do the temperature. They can spool up your Netflix on the television, kind of like, as you say, Full Sail University. Because they don’t have the restrictions that a traditional university has, they can be more progressive, they can try new things. And I think that’s certainly important for this topic that we’re talking about from an educational standpoint, but I think it’s also important from a meta standpoint. The all of us as social media marketers and communicators have to realize, because of our position, we can do different things that a traditional marketer simply cannot.
Jay: Yeah. I would almost argue that, in this particular profession, you’re almost better off being an institution that has more edge on faculty who aren’t necessarily tenured professors, but are coming from an agency environment, a corporate environment. Because they’re just gonna have a more real-time look at what’s happening in the business. My daughter’s going to Boston University in the fall, which is a more traditional program. And she’s going into the advertising program, and it’s a terrific program with great professors in an unbelievable city. But I do have some concerns about whether or not that curriculum is going to give her what she needs to really stay on top of things four years from now when she’s out looking for a job. So, time will tell.
Temi: And I can also say that it’s a new day in terms of students, because students are more demanding, and we have this tendency to say … ‘Cause nobody wants to be left behind. And I think everybody knows about it. And so, I was on Carey’s podcast a couple months back and she had C.C. Chapman on there. And he was talking about teaching at Bentley University and how his students continually challenge him. And it’s really getting to the point where, on all sides, that old, stale … It’s just not gonna cut it. And so, if it’s not coming from direct competition, it’s going to be coming from the students themselves. And so, again, I do think that it’s definitely a problem, and I’m not gonna sit here and say it’s not. But, I think that there are a lot of pressures convalescing on it that will give the impetus for change.
Adam: Absolutely. And I think it even goes back to kind of how Jay and I actually run this podcast with the appreciation of all the people who listen to us and the guests that we’ve had on. I think we have to focus, in this industry, to move quickly. And we need to have this quest for knowledge, this quest for insight, learning from experiences, and learning from people who aren’t like ourselves. I think the marketers’ fallacy, as I oftentimes call it, is this idea because we think something works in marketing or communications, ergo our audience, our target audience, will do the same. And that’s almost never the case. We almost are never exactly the demographic of who we’re trying to reach. So, I think that’s where things like, Temi, your Marketing Disenchanted podcast, this podcast, trade shows, conventions, conferences, and ongoing training and education are so critical, I think, for us to be successful.
Temi: Agreed.
Jay: I’ve got some ongoing training and education for you from our friends at Salesforce Marketing Cloud.
Adam: Nice.
Jay: You have produced … Adam and his team have produced an e-book with the 50 standout practices for marketers on social media, including insights on social listening for better metrics, strengthening relationships with fans, creating scroll-stopping content, you gotta stop that thumb, and social ads that actually work. Grab it. You’re gonna like it. 50 Standout Best Practices for Social Media Marketers. Go to That’s Thanks as always to Salesforce for sponsoring the show. Also, I want to remind you guys that if you’re listening to the Social Pros podcast … Obviously you are. That wasn’t really a rhetorical question. When you are listening to the Social Pros podcast, you might want to consider also listening to our sister show, The Content Pros podcast.

It’s like this show, but hosted by different people and talking about content marketing, but lots of crossover, really terrific guests, hosted by Tyler Lessard, who’s the CMO of Vidyard, amazing video company, and Randy Frisch, who’s one of the co-founders of an unbelievable content organization called Uberflip that I’m actually an investor in. So, really great show. Just go to whatever you use for podcasts and look for Content Pros or go to Adam, back to you.

Adam: Great Jay, thank you. And I completely agree. Content Pros is a fantastic show, and if you listen to this one, you said listen to that one. It is on my subscription list on my iPhone. And perfect segue, Temi, into some other things that I wanted to talk to you a little bit about. I know one of the points you oftentimes make on your podcast is this idea of content fatigue. There’s just too much content coming at us and at our consumers from so many different directions. I’m curious, your thoughts on content fatigue and that you, and as you work with your clients and your customers, what kinds of content are you finding that are really driving the fatigue right now? But also, what content is being best-suited to combat this. We’re certainly hearing things and seeing things around live streaming, and adoption and engagement with live streaming. We’re hearing different format types of stories and content are working better than others. Love to hear your thoughts on this, I think, very important topic.
Temi: Absolutely. And I am gonna take the opportunity to give a shout-out to Park Howell over at Business of Story, because I think that brand storytelling overcomes a lot of the content fatigue, that that’s the short answer.
Adam: Yeah.
Temi: Because everybody tries to tell a story, but it’s specifically the way that he talks about it, the ABT format, the And, But, Therefore narrative really … It engages in a very particular way. He had a podcast, and … So, that’s the short answer. The first one is brand storytelling. And the second part of my answer is I do think that podcasts in particular, not video, is more of the content that I tend to push. Because first of all, even though Facebook really is driving a lot of the live video, the way that they measure is kind of suspect to me. They measure it after three seconds, and then a lot of folks are scrolling, and you don’t know if a view is a view.

And granted, the measurement in podcasting isn’t much better, because you have … You know what a download is, but there’s no way to tell you if they actually listened to it. But, I do think that podcasting, at least for me personally, using it as an analog, is that I can play a podcast when I’m on the train to Sage Summit. I can play a podcast when I’m washing dishes. I can interact with my life and not feel like I’m so chained to my screen. So, I think that video is definitely on the rise. There’s no denying that. But in terms of brand storytelling and … One of the reasons I started podcasting in the first place is because I do take a stance that is counter to a lot of Gary Vs and a lot of other prominent people in the industry.

And what can happen sometimes when you have written content, is that the tone can sometimes be difficult to decipher, and something that’s written one way can be read another and completely taken out of context. I think we’ve all had the experience of just shooting a text that got interpreted as sarcastic, and now you’re having a meaningless falling out with your wife or your girlfriend, and you sent that text innocently. And especially given the type of subject matter, I wanted to be heard out, literally. I wanted you to hear my voice. I wanted you to feel my energy, hear the inflection in my voice, and I think that podcasting is purpose-built for that. And I think that the way that you overcome the shock is, again, by telling stories in a very specific, structured way, because everybody can talk, but very few people can actually tell a story.

Adam: And as you talked to your clients and your customers, and even whether they’re a national organization or a local organization, are you giving them this type of advice in terms of how to tell stories and kind of what stories to tell? Certainly, one of the benefits of textual-type content is that it’s findability and searchability, whereas until … Again, artificial intelligence and what we’re talking about right now really hits the mainstream as it relates to video tagging, audio tagging, and the like is certainly something we’re working on in earnest at Salesforce. It’s gonna be a little bit harder to find and have that discoverability. How do we get around that?
Temi: Well, yeah. Attribution has always been a big problem, but what I tell my clients, and what I tell people that I talk with is, I use one of Jay’s famous lines. That you give them content snacks to sell content meals. And so, I try to … Using the classic example of the funnel, you make content for different phases of the funnel, and so where a full-blown podcast may not be appropriate, maybe you just do a 30 second soundbite, or maybe you do a quote with an image that you put on Pinterest or Instagram. It really just depends on the vertical, who I’m talking to, but I definitely … One of the things that I will tell people is, borrowing from Jay, sell content snacks to … Give them content snacks to sell content meals. And I think that as the technology catches up and as the attribution gets better … I mean because don’t get me wrong, you can track quite a bit right now with Google Analytics, which is just the free one, and I also a tool called Lucky Orange, which lets you actually record the session, so you can see not only-
Adam: Nice.
Temi: … Where they’re entering the site, but also how they’re interacting with the contents. So, those are my go-tos.
Adam: Speak a little bit more about that in terms of tracking conversations and in engagement. I think one of the things that, and challenges that I’ve had with clients that I’ve worked with in the past is, that conversion from conversation to conversion. So, actually showing, okay, we have people. They’re listening to the podcast. They’re listening to the program. They’ve consumed our YouTube video about this product or service, again whether it’s B2B or B2C, we’ve seen them kind of, maybe, jump over the fence to the website. And then, how do we begin to kind of show that actual conversion? That that indeed took somebody on a journey from acquisition to understanding to, then, actually transaction. Is that something that you think needs more glue or is that something that you think is going to happen sooner rather than later?
Temi: I think it’s happening right now. I use Drip, by Leadpages. And Drip is really good about letting you build work flows and tag certain things, so I can actually … Leadpages is the back of … What I can do there, is I can architect the funnel, and I can actually say, “Okay, here’s the piece of content, once they do this it’s gonna set a trigger, and I’m going to send out a email sequence. One day after that, I’m going to send over another one out in two days, and all of this can be set up inside of … You connect Drip. Drip is the actual email auto-responder, similar to AWeber or a lot of the other ones, but Drip is just … Drip gives you a completely different level of automation. And so, you build out your funnel inside of Leadpages, you connect everything to Drip, and then it will track if they land on a video, if they play a video and you can actually blueprint out what happens after they reach a certain point in the video.

After they play the video for 30 seconds, after they play the video for however long. And so, I think that this goes back to one of the education pieces, because the technology exists now, but being Leadpages-certified and actually being able to communicate that to a client is a different kettle of fish. So, I think that when you’re having conversations with clients and when you’re talking about your capabilities, one of the things that’s gonna set you apart … And again, you don’t have to have a degree to get Leadpages-certified. You can just go to Leadpages, go to Drip, and get the thing. But it’s one of those gaps, just in terms of the actual client that you’re talking to, in terms of what it is that you can actually deliver upon, but-

Adam: And why it works, right? You can figure out how to do it, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you know how it all works together. And you mentioned this earlier. I thought it was a really good point, that’s there’s so many components now to the digital marketing story. Social is one of them, content is one of them, lead gen is one of them, nurture is one of them, a video is one of them, and AI of course. And so, there’s all these different places that have to tie together, and you got to know the big picture. You can take a course from anybody and learn that one thing, but it’s not about one thing. It’s about knowing all the things.
Temi: Absolutely.
Adam: So, I want to ask you the two questions that we’ve asked everybody on the show, and you probably know what they are. And so, I’m particularly interested to know what your answers are going to be, since some people don’t know what the questions are and they gotta come up with it on the spot. But, you have had time to prep, you’ve had practice time. So, Temitayo Osinubi, what one tip would you give somebody looking to become a social pro?
Temi: Okay, so my one tip has three parts, but it is just one tip.
Adam: All right.
Temi: The first is, figure out where in the digital marketing ecosystem that you want to occupy. So, going back to my analogy comparing digital marketing to the medical field, there are certain stratas, there are different levels of digital marketing, and you really want to figure out which one it is. So, I don’t know how many gamers we have in the audience, but if you look at a game like Shadow of Mordor, Shadow of War, you can actually pan out and see the whole map. Figure out which area of the map that you want to go and conquer. And that is your area, that is what you are gonna own. Be that. SEO? Be that. Brand storytelling? Be that. Funnel architecture, whatever, but just really recognize that this is a profession, there are different levels, and that you’re gonna have to stake your claim and then figure out what it is that you want to be.

The second part is that after you’ve figured that out, reach out to thought leaders and like-minded people on Twitter. Yes, Twitter is my absolute favorite social network, bar none. I get the bulk of my guests, a good 95, 98% of my guests come directly from Twitter. I’m talking Scott Monty, Brian Fanzo, Mark Schaefer. Hell, this very conversation that we’re having originated on Twitter.

Adam: True.
Temi: And I know that there are certain attributions. They have a lot of bots on there, and it doesn’t do the best on Wall Street. But, me personally, it’s indispensable for this podcast or the other ones who have to drag me out of Twitter. I can’t say enough about Twitter, just in terms of punching above your weight in terms of connecting with people. There’s no platform better. Then, after you do that, you want to listen to the eMarketer podcast. A lot of the questions that I pose on my podcast come directly from listening to the eMarketer podcast. Shout-out to Cathy Boyle, Jillian Ryan, Marcus Johnson, and Ezra Palmer doing they thing, because it’s timely, it’s backed by metrics, and it’s just an easy way to sound smart. You don’t even necessarily have to buy the whole package and download the reports. I mean, you can if you want to, but just listening to the eMarketer podcast is going to make you really, really smart and really, really up-to-date. So, that’s the three parts to my one answer. Figure out where you want to occupy, reach out on Twitter, and listen to Behind The Numbers eMarketer podcast.
Jay: I love it. Great recommendation, I’ll make sure to link up in the show notes. Make sure you go to, which has all of our show notes across six years of shows. Temi, last question for you. You know what’s coming. If you could do a Skype call with any living person, who would it be and why?
Temi: Carlos Gil, and the-
Jay: Ah, Carlos Gil’s has been on the show.
Adam: Yeah.
Temi: Yeah, yeah. And he’s actually speaking at Digital Marketer here, the digital summit here in a couple days. And the reason that I want to talk to Mr. Gil is for the same reason that he chose President Obama, and that is that he is … We’re within a couple years of each other. I think he’s like a year older than I am. He’s a Latino man, has a different experience, he doesn’t have a degree. And like I say in my book and on my podcast, I’m biased, but I’m not bougie. I do not think that everybody has to have a degree. I’m not here to make that right or wrong. I’m just here to, like I said, give clarity and draw distinctions. And so, just given his experience sort of scrapping his way through corporate America, especially being in California, and being a Latino man given the current political climate, and let’s build a wall, and all of that stuff. So, I would just really love to pick Carlos’s brain. I respect his hustle like nobody’s business, and yeah, I would love to talk to Carlos.
Jay: All right, Have you spent some time with him in the past?
Temi: I have not. We have never met. We have tweeted back and forth. I was trying to get him to do a webinar for Full Sail, but of course his calendar is packed ’cause he’s on that Gary V hustle. But no, I have not met him yet, but I’m looking forward to it soon.
Jay: All right, well make sure you guys get a chance to get connected and if you don’t have a chance, let me know and I’ll make that happen for sure.
Temi: Absolutely. Will do.
Jay: Right on. Well, that’s good. Well, I’ll makes sure to let Carlos know that he was named-checked here on Social Pros. Sure he’ll be excited about that. He was on the show. Yeah, that’s awesome. Temi, thanks so much for being on the podcast. It was spectacular. Thanks, of course, for being a fan of the show and a long-time listener as well. It means a lot to Adam and myself.
Temi: It was an absolute honor. Thank you both very much.
Jay: And when do Adam and I get to be on the Disenchanted Marketing podcast?
Temi: I will send you out an invitation link as soon as we get off.
Jay: All right, we gotta do it together though. We only do things together now, so we’ll have to come in as a package deal.
Adam: We’re twins.
Temi: Works for me.
Adam: We’re the Smothers Brothers, if you will.
Temi: Works for me. That’ll be awesome.
Jay: That’s a reference that a lot of listeners are not going to pick up on, Adam. Thank you. Well done.
Adam: Very old reference. Google it, Google it.
Jay: Yeah, Google it. Smother Brothers. Guys, thanks so much for listening. As always, we will back next week. He’s Adam Brown for Salesforce. I am Jay Baer from Convince & Convert, and this has been Social Pros.

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